Copperman05
New member
Nobody knows how to adjust them?
Edd
New Suspension, KW-V3?
- Thread starter Copperman05
- Start date
Nobody knows how to adjust them?
Edd
You have to drop the rears out to adjust the rebound. That's the main hassle. Not hard to leave them somewhere in the middle and forget about this unless you track your car regularly and tune the suspension as part of your 'program'.
They're a great product in terms of driveability...but the lack of remote cannisters for anything less than a small fortune has me switching to Motons. For a regular road/trackday car I would stick with the KWs.
Oh, the bump is adj with an allen key and can be done from underneath. At the fronts you adj the rebound at the top, bump underneath.
They're a great product in terms of driveability...but the lack of remote cannisters for anything less than a small fortune has me switching to Motons. For a regular road/trackday car I would stick with the KWs.
Oh, the bump is adj with an allen key and can be done from underneath. At the fronts you adj the rebound at the top, bump underneath.
My Gaz Gold re-fit came out at just under £1500 including full geo and corner weighting. The ride now feels very similar to my 996 on the road. Not tracked it yet but pushing some familiar corners on the road shows that the handling limit has been pushed into an entirely new dimension. Rebound adjustment looks very simple via knurled click-stop knobs on the damper legs. So far very pleased with the investment.
George Elliott
New member
what he said
I would put a 924 or any 944 ahead of any rear engined car on a wet, yumpy road, especially if I was unfamiliar with the road. The balance is superior.
But don't ask me to give up the beetle [8|]
George
I would put a 924 or any 944 ahead of any rear engined car on a wet, yumpy road, especially if I was unfamiliar with the road. The balance is superior.
But don't ask me to give up the beetle [8|]
George
[/quote]
Really would you say your 944 was worse over bumps? The 4s and turbo models I've experienced were probably more unsettled on bumpy roads than a 944 but they do have a lot less body roll.
[/quote]
It's just an overall impression. In other words, when I drive the 996 down the lane towards town it feels very 'jiggly' for want of a better word compared to an overdamped hatch. The 944 now recreates that jiggly feel. It's not a nervousness or harshness rather a digital response to the surface. On public roads, the 996 still has a massive grin factor when tramping on but the S2 on golds seems to be up there with it. Still getting used to it really and the acid test will be on the track which is why I went for coil-overs in the first place.
The only coarse note is the sound of the rear springs clonking against the wheel arch which was not designed to accomodate them in the first place. Kevin did warn me about that!
Big Dave
New member
As Patrick has mentioned the fronts are easily adjusted on the car , from both top and bottom adjusters.
The rears are somewhat different. The compresion is adjustable from the bottom of the shock via an allen key, BUT the rebound is adjusted at the top, and the damper HAS to be removed to do any sort of adjustment, and i found that the rear rebound is a critical adjustment for a track biased 944/968.
This is the only downside to the KW,s... And one of the main reasons i removed mine + fitted some remote res Gaz units, although the Gaz units are a lot harsher....
Copperman05
New member
Ok thanks for that guys,
The options I have now appear to be -
1. Stay with the standard new S2 shocks, surprisingly expensive at about £1400 fitted with geo.
2. For the Koni route, slightly harder ride with some rate adjustment at about £1200 fitted with geo.
3. The KW-V3's, needs to be reindexed to get full lowering potential at about £2300 or £1800 without reindexing. I would probably try and get away without re-indexing at this stage.
Obviously there is then the additional price for 968 castor mounts, arb's + new bushes etc. I would probably at least go for changing to 968 castor mounts and replace worn bushes.
So the Koni's rather surprisingly appear to be the cheapest option, but I'm still leaning towards the KW's as even if the car is not a often tracked one they do offer the best in ride quality, performace, adjustability and are more future proof than the other options and this is very important to me, they also come with a lifetime guarantee which the others do not offer AFAIK.
Plus fitting KW's are probably the only shocks that might see a rise in the re-sale value of the car (albeit a small one), something I doubt would happen with the stock or Koni options, so they are a potential investment as well.
Edd
The options I have now appear to be -
1. Stay with the standard new S2 shocks, surprisingly expensive at about £1400 fitted with geo.
2. For the Koni route, slightly harder ride with some rate adjustment at about £1200 fitted with geo.
3. The KW-V3's, needs to be reindexed to get full lowering potential at about £2300 or £1800 without reindexing. I would probably try and get away without re-indexing at this stage.
Obviously there is then the additional price for 968 castor mounts, arb's + new bushes etc. I would probably at least go for changing to 968 castor mounts and replace worn bushes.
So the Koni's rather surprisingly appear to be the cheapest option, but I'm still leaning towards the KW's as even if the car is not a often tracked one they do offer the best in ride quality, performace, adjustability and are more future proof than the other options and this is very important to me, they also come with a lifetime guarantee which the others do not offer AFAIK.
Plus fitting KW's are probably the only shocks that might see a rise in the re-sale value of the car (albeit a small one), something I doubt would happen with the stock or Koni options, so they are a potential investment as well.
Edd
Copperman05
New member
I have tried 2 cars fitted with KW-V3's, both 944 S2's one with re-indexing, one without. The difference I could tell was that the re-indexed car sat lower, its was also the more track focused car the other being a road car.
I appreciated what your saying but unfortunately the cost of re-indexing (in the first instance at least) makes the option unaffordable for me.
I'd rather fit the kw's and have the option to tweak and improve as the car gets tracked more or more funds become available. Surely a non re-indexed KW set up is going to be better then the Koni or stock options as the latter will never have the scope for improvement in the future.
In their fitting intructions KW also recommend adjusting the ride height via the concentric adjustment, and do not mention re-indexing the torsion bar. The main issue it would appear with not re-indexing would be limiting the amount of potential ride height available. Without re-indexing you may not achieve the lowest ride height the KW's can provide. If my car was a regular tracked one re-indexing is the obvious route. As its not (at the moment at least), a ride height that is similar to stock (or slightly lower) will suffice for my needs.
It may not be the ultimate set up now, but at least fitting the KW's will give me the option to achieve that set up in the future.... (when I can more afford it).
Edd
Copperman05
New member
Please tell me more...
Edd
Copperman05
New member
I have re-started this thread as I'm looking at getting Kw's fitted (with indexing) very soon, my question is to those who have experience with polybushes. I could either get full set of bushes fitted, just do a select few or none at all, was wondering what difference they make and whether they are value for money, worth doing, etc.
What do you think?
Edd
What do you think?
Edd
944 man
Active member
I think that you can fit PU anti-roll bar bushes, if you grease them sufficiently (to stop the damned squaaking), but that youre better off fitting all new original Porsche compliance bushes, including the later type rear wishbone mount.
I understand the 'while Im there' approach, but all PU bushes will change the car beyond belief, especially with KW V3 dampers and itll all be NVH, not amazingly tight feel, if you know what I mean?
EMC build racers using all new OEM bushes...
I understand the 'while Im there' approach, but all PU bushes will change the car beyond belief, especially with KW V3 dampers and itll all be NVH, not amazingly tight feel, if you know what I mean?
EMC build racers using all new OEM bushes...
Neil Haughey
New member
Its in the rules.
TBH one should worry far more about stiction with hard bushes than movement in the stock bushes, or to put things another way both the front and rear suspension is desinged in such a way that you have to have compliance in the bushings in order for the suspension to go up and down. Sorry to say it but if anyone doesn't like that the next step is to sell the car and buy something that doesn't have stoneage suspension design, but you don't have to as they have amazing handling and limits on stiff springs and track tyres...and the original rubber bushes.
Its on my list to replace the delrin bushes on my front wishbones with stock OEM rubber bushes.
TBH one should worry far more about stiction with hard bushes than movement in the stock bushes, or to put things another way both the front and rear suspension is desinged in such a way that you have to have compliance in the bushings in order for the suspension to go up and down. Sorry to say it but if anyone doesn't like that the next step is to sell the car and buy something that doesn't have stoneage suspension design, but you don't have to as they have amazing handling and limits on stiff springs and track tyres...and the original rubber bushes.
Its on my list to replace the delrin bushes on my front wishbones with stock OEM rubber bushes.
Jonny944CS
New member
I'm with Neil and Simon on this. The Poly or Plastic bush kits available for Porsche cars must have the original suspension designers rolling their eyes in dismay.
IMHO you either don't care about NVH and go all-out for rose joints, which really need a seam-welded and gusseted shell and wear-out/seize-up after a few thousand miles of road use through dirt ingress...
...Or you stick to the tight, friction-free, reliable and compliant factory units. They are clearly deemed good enough for not only PCGB racing, but factory Weissach Clubsports and the 924 GTS.
If you fancy tightening the car up a little from standard, you could consider the following:
Front
- Higher shore hardness M030 front wishbone bushes (still available from OPCs when I bought mine last year).
- Rear 968 caster bushes (less rubber material)
Rear
- M030 upper torsion bar housing mounts and trailing arm bushes
- 25.5mm torsion bars
For a road car, the KWs offer the closest-to-OEM levels of quality and a tolerable ride. As previously mentioned - we just need someone to devise an ingenious combination of bent wires and mirrors to allow on-the-car rear rebound adjustment...
IMHO you either don't care about NVH and go all-out for rose joints, which really need a seam-welded and gusseted shell and wear-out/seize-up after a few thousand miles of road use through dirt ingress...
...Or you stick to the tight, friction-free, reliable and compliant factory units. They are clearly deemed good enough for not only PCGB racing, but factory Weissach Clubsports and the 924 GTS.
If you fancy tightening the car up a little from standard, you could consider the following:
Front
- Higher shore hardness M030 front wishbone bushes (still available from OPCs when I bought mine last year).
- Rear 968 caster bushes (less rubber material)
Rear
- M030 upper torsion bar housing mounts and trailing arm bushes
- 25.5mm torsion bars
For a road car, the KWs offer the closest-to-OEM levels of quality and a tolerable ride. As previously mentioned - we just need someone to devise an ingenious combination of bent wires and mirrors to allow on-the-car rear rebound adjustment...
George Elliott
New member
Edd,
good question, and by the sound of it, the poly's are a bit extreme. I don't have experience of poly's but my impression would be that they are likely to be harsh.
I only have refurb'd M030 at std ride height, and previously std 1986 turbo experience, so what would I know! I don't want to pretend to be any authority on the subject.
The point about stiction / movement is interesting, - because we want accurate location and also movement from the bush, and the OE fit bush allows movement but compromises location, the poly bush provides un-compromised location (excepting rose-joints) but perhaps the suspension design intent does not suit this hard unyielding material when it comes to movement.
With Hard spring rates on slicks and in a track situation where the car is set up like a Kart, the Poly's are likely a good idea.
Over pot-holes and thousands of road miles where comfort is desirable and you cannot use the last 20% of the handling envelope very often, the polys are perhaps too extreme.
Interesting too that EBC use standard bushes, (and that they have no choice) but they know a thing or two about set-up of these cars. I would put your question to them?
One thing I would not do is mix soft with rigid bushes, it could result in un predictable handling in certain situations.
Got any ARB plans? (968 M030 or weltmeister have good reputations)
Also, ride height will be relevant, I'd have similar plans to your one day and I reckon -24mm would be good with KW and 968 M030, and a Promax setup. (more helpful than CG IME)
Keep us posted
Thanks
george
944T
good question, and by the sound of it, the poly's are a bit extreme. I don't have experience of poly's but my impression would be that they are likely to be harsh.
I only have refurb'd M030 at std ride height, and previously std 1986 turbo experience, so what would I know! I don't want to pretend to be any authority on the subject.
The point about stiction / movement is interesting, - because we want accurate location and also movement from the bush, and the OE fit bush allows movement but compromises location, the poly bush provides un-compromised location (excepting rose-joints) but perhaps the suspension design intent does not suit this hard unyielding material when it comes to movement.
With Hard spring rates on slicks and in a track situation where the car is set up like a Kart, the Poly's are likely a good idea.
Over pot-holes and thousands of road miles where comfort is desirable and you cannot use the last 20% of the handling envelope very often, the polys are perhaps too extreme.
Interesting too that EBC use standard bushes, (and that they have no choice) but they know a thing or two about set-up of these cars. I would put your question to them?
One thing I would not do is mix soft with rigid bushes, it could result in un predictable handling in certain situations.
Got any ARB plans? (968 M030 or weltmeister have good reputations)
Also, ride height will be relevant, I'd have similar plans to your one day and I reckon -24mm would be good with KW and 968 M030, and a Promax setup. (more helpful than CG IME)
Keep us posted
Thanks
george
944T
Neil Haughey
New member
Yum, sounds great have you got part nos on those Jonny? I wasn't aware of different versions of rear bushings.
Cheers
Neil
With all this comment about new front and rear suspension one major factor seems to be being ignored - what about the front suspension top mounts.
Do the prices quoted for new front suspension include new front top mounts.
As far as I am aware new top mounts from Porsche are in the region of £500 for the pair.
Without new top mounts any new front stuts are not going to be supported properly.
When I fitted standard front and rear suspension to my car I also fitted new top mounts - after 126,000 miles the originals were a bit passed their prime.
Mike
White 2.7 automatic
Do the prices quoted for new front suspension include new front top mounts.
As far as I am aware new top mounts from Porsche are in the region of £500 for the pair.
Without new top mounts any new front stuts are not going to be supported properly.
When I fitted standard front and rear suspension to my car I also fitted new top mounts - after 126,000 miles the originals were a bit passed their prime.
Mike
White 2.7 automatic
I've never seen a price quoted for a suspension upgrade that included top mounts, but I agree that they would need to be done if they are significantly worn. They might not be shot in all cases though.
My car has 87,000 miles on it and over the last 18 months both Promax and Hartech have given the top mounts a clean bill of health despite me saying that I would rather change anything even remotely suspect on a "while you're in there" basis.
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