New Suspension, KW-V3?
- Thread starter Copperman05
- Start date
Jonny944CS
New member
Part numbers for the Genuine M030 bushes (if still available)
Part # 1 - Front wishbone bushes (x4) - 951 341 041 31
# 2 - Rear wishbone bush (x2) - 951 341 023 01
# 3 - Torsion bar tube thrust mount (x2) - 951 331 088 30
# 4 - Rear trailing arm bushes (x4) - 951 331 059 30
I believe Hartech are also now offering their own versions of the stiffer bonded rubber front bushes.
Part # 1 - Front wishbone bushes (x4) - 951 341 041 31
# 2 - Rear wishbone bush (x2) - 951 341 023 01
# 3 - Torsion bar tube thrust mount (x2) - 951 331 088 30
# 4 - Rear trailing arm bushes (x4) - 951 331 059 30
I believe Hartech are also now offering their own versions of the stiffer bonded rubber front bushes.
Copperman05
New member
Going by what the indie was telling me poly bushes tighten up the car rather than make it harsh or too hard, although this seems against advise I'm getting here.
Replacing with poly bushes does push the price up considerably and TBO perhaps for anything other than a serious track car they may be a bit of overkill and perhaps unnecessary. I'm considering 968 castor mounts and thicker rear ARB, replacing worn bushes with OEM as required.
On the topic of top mounts it has been suggested these may need replacing by the indie, I notice Promax do KLA solid top mounts for about £130+vat, non adjustable, but more realistic compared to the £460 Porsche items.
Edd
Replacing with poly bushes does push the price up considerably and TBO perhaps for anything other than a serious track car they may be a bit of overkill and perhaps unnecessary. I'm considering 968 castor mounts and thicker rear ARB, replacing worn bushes with OEM as required.
On the topic of top mounts it has been suggested these may need replacing by the indie, I notice Promax do KLA solid top mounts for about £130+vat, non adjustable, but more realistic compared to the £460 Porsche items.
Edd
Edd,
You'll want to replace the bushes anyway (you'd be making a mistake if you didn't), and when I did it I found that poly bushes were cheaper than OEM.
My car has them, and it's neither harsh nor noisy. I don't know how much difference they made on their own (they were fitted - by me - when I replaced the suspension and hence all I know is that the overall effect was night-and-day improvement. Mind you, that was 60k miles ago now - it wouldn't surprise me if they need changing again now!)
Oli.
You'll want to replace the bushes anyway (you'd be making a mistake if you didn't), and when I did it I found that poly bushes were cheaper than OEM.
My car has them, and it's neither harsh nor noisy. I don't know how much difference they made on their own (they were fitted - by me - when I replaced the suspension and hence all I know is that the overall effect was night-and-day improvement. Mind you, that was 60k miles ago now - it wouldn't surprise me if they need changing again now!)
Oli.
Copperman05
New member
mmm, conflicting opinions... TBO I know replacing the bushes would be good practice but this is pushing the price up to nearly £3500 for the full set (inc kw's, indexing, etc), which for me is just too much.
I am looking at fitting Spax coilovers next year, great value (look them up), they are coilover fronts and either coilover rear or just adj. shocks rear. I think there would be a lot involved in setting up coilover rears to work along with torsion bars.
As for bushes I have heard they are fine on roll bars, but can harshen ride on suspension parts. I have Floflex front arb busshes fitted and have Floflex castor bushes, wishbone bushes and rear arb bushes to go on. Floflex are great value also compared with others.
I will be fitting coilovers and bushes myself as it's mostly bolt off - bolt on, nothing too technical, and then get alignment set up. This will obviously keep costs down.
Alan.
As for bushes I have heard they are fine on roll bars, but can harshen ride on suspension parts. I have Floflex front arb busshes fitted and have Floflex castor bushes, wishbone bushes and rear arb bushes to go on. Floflex are great value also compared with others.
I will be fitting coilovers and bushes myself as it's mostly bolt off - bolt on, nothing too technical, and then get alignment set up. This will obviously keep costs down.
Alan.
Ewan
New member
Edd,
Who have you had quote for the supply and fit of the KWV3 system? I am interested in doing this, but it does seem pricey.
I am in the same situation as you, in that I want/need to overhaul my suspension, and am struggling to decide on which option. I can have my local Porsche indie fit a new adjustable Koni system (dampers plus springs) for £1150 + vat. I already have recently fitted 968 castor mounts and newed (standard) bushes, so I'm thinking this is a good and affordable option.
But all this banging on about KWV has caught my attention. Like you, my car is for road use, so I'm not convinced I need it, but "need" and "want" are different things.
My local indie can do the KWV, but they advise me that fitting the rear correctly can be a Xugger of a job and takes a long time to set up accurately. They won't give a fixed price becuase the set up "takes as long as it takes". Given that I am unlikely to ever re-set anything, do I need the extra adjustability of KWV? No. But, if it makes the car drive and feel like a more modern car (e.g. a boxster), it certainly becomes tempting.
Would it be madness to have new adjustable Koni shocks at the rear (quick, cheap and easy, at £350 inc fitting, plus Vat), but then fit the better fully adjustable KWV3 at the front (as apparently fitting the fronts is straight forward). Is this a good compromise, or lunacy?!!
Who have you had quote for the supply and fit of the KWV3 system? I am interested in doing this, but it does seem pricey.
I am in the same situation as you, in that I want/need to overhaul my suspension, and am struggling to decide on which option. I can have my local Porsche indie fit a new adjustable Koni system (dampers plus springs) for £1150 + vat. I already have recently fitted 968 castor mounts and newed (standard) bushes, so I'm thinking this is a good and affordable option.
But all this banging on about KWV has caught my attention. Like you, my car is for road use, so I'm not convinced I need it, but "need" and "want" are different things.
My local indie can do the KWV, but they advise me that fitting the rear correctly can be a Xugger of a job and takes a long time to set up accurately. They won't give a fixed price becuase the set up "takes as long as it takes". Given that I am unlikely to ever re-set anything, do I need the extra adjustability of KWV? No. But, if it makes the car drive and feel like a more modern car (e.g. a boxster), it certainly becomes tempting.
Would it be madness to have new adjustable Koni shocks at the rear (quick, cheap and easy, at £350 inc fitting, plus Vat), but then fit the better fully adjustable KWV3 at the front (as apparently fitting the fronts is straight forward). Is this a good compromise, or lunacy?!!
Edd,
The job is much, much more than the sum of the parts. Not replacing one part of the system will mean you get less than full performance out of the other new parts you fit. Being brutally honest, if you can't afford to have the whole job done I wouldn't bother having any of it done. Really. Wait another 6 months and save some more money, so you can afford to do the job properly when you do go ahead with it.
BUT you are looking at the most expensive option - KWv3. Buying a lesser suspension kit would make things a LOT cheaper, and I'd suggest that Koni shocks with full bushes and a good alignment would be an excellent option for a road use car like yours. And, if you can fit things yourself, it will save you a packet. Fitting the things isn't hard at all - I did it in a day, by the side of the road, and that included TWO trips to Halfords to buy tools (OK, one trip to buy and one trip to return the new tool as it broke the first time I used it!)
Ewan - see my comment above. Although you're wrong - the fronts are easy to do, but take a bit of time and involve re-doing the geo afterwards. The rear shocks are unbelievably easy, and you don't even need to re-geo the car when you do them. Having said that, fitting the KWv3's may* involve re-indexing the rear torsion bar, which is a bigger job.
Oli.
* - Do the torsion bars need re-indexing when you fit KWv3's? That's quite a debate.
There is being able to 'Afford' something, then there is being able to 'Justify' something. If you are looking at 3k on suspension then you are getting close to the overall value of the car. I am hoping to have mine all done using Spax coilovers, Floflex bushes and full Geo for under 1k.
Alan.
Alan.
That is a very good point indeed. FWIW, I did mine (with Koni and poly bushes, DIY but including full geo at a laser-setup place) for a good chunk under £800 about 5 years ago. If you can do something similar for under a grand now I'd be impressed, but it sounds like a good figure to aim for.
The whole afford/justify thing is opening a can of worms tho' ... and I am a total skinflint, so my point of view will always be biased! [&:]
Oli.
Copperman05
New member
I hear what your saying, but if we're going to replace everything as a matter of course why dont we do the top mounts, too? As stated before these are probably at the end of there lives after 22 odd years whilst I would imagine most of the bushes have been replaced at least once by now... I know from the service history with my car at least the ARB bushes were done in 2006, + others listed.
My purpose for fitting the KW's is to replace the worn and mot failure stock shocks, have a suspension system which is pretty future proof, a one time investment that can handle pretty much all eventual use of the car (track, fast road, Nurburgring, etc) with ease + adjustability to facilitate this, its a no brainer for me and the only choice which will actually add any value to a car IMO.
When I spoke to Chris at Centre Gravity his advice was to replace as needed, he seems a bit of an expert on the matter too. The quote above is from a Hertfordshire based specialist, and TBO they have stated they can get a discount on the KW-V3 and total work done (price quoted for kw is full book price) but how much this would be I dont know at this time, I think they estimate at the high end to account for potential lengthy labour costs. (because they wont charge over the estimate given)
Edd
My purpose for fitting the KW's is to replace the worn and mot failure stock shocks, have a suspension system which is pretty future proof, a one time investment that can handle pretty much all eventual use of the car (track, fast road, Nurburgring, etc) with ease + adjustability to facilitate this, its a no brainer for me and the only choice which will actually add any value to a car IMO.
When I spoke to Chris at Centre Gravity his advice was to replace as needed, he seems a bit of an expert on the matter too. The quote above is from a Hertfordshire based specialist, and TBO they have stated they can get a discount on the KW-V3 and total work done (price quoted for kw is full book price) but how much this would be I dont know at this time, I think they estimate at the high end to account for potential lengthy labour costs. (because they wont charge over the estimate given)
Edd
Copperman05
New member
Its a valid point but we've all probably spent more than the value of our cars on maintenance over the years + more, the value isn't so important to me, its the drive I'm after...
Edd
Edd,
You are certainly looking at about the most comprehensive suspension replacement you can possibly do on a 944. And I'd hate to think of you spending £3k for a solution which would be 20% better for the sake of another £100 (a 3% price increase.) OK, I'm guessing - I don't know how much better the poly bushes would make it (or even if that could be quantified), and I don't know how much the price increment would be either, but I'm sure you see the point. While you are mentioning it, why aren't you doing the top mounts? It may be a false economy not to. (Bear in mind that the geo will be expensive - probably £150 expensive. And if you decide to fit the top mounts or poly bushes at a later date, you'll need to pay another £150 on top for another geo.)
I'm sounding very negative, preach-y and schoolmasterish, and I apologise. I just can't (personally) justify spending what is very nearly the full value of the car on some suspension. You say that KWv3's are the only kit that will increase the value of the car; any documented work done on a car will increase the value and make it more sale-able, and you need to bear in mind that you never ever get the value of modifications back when you sell the car.
Am I trying to talk you out of the KWv3's? No. And neither am I trying to talk you into having the bushes fitted. But I am trying to offer a contrasting point of view! Alan's route (costing less than £900) would leave you with enough change for a decent camera, a good holiday, some new carpets in your house, insurance for the next four years or a £2000 hole in your mortgage. (And, being a negative, preach-y, schoolmasterish old git, you can guess which I would choose.)
Oli.
You are certainly looking at about the most comprehensive suspension replacement you can possibly do on a 944. And I'd hate to think of you spending £3k for a solution which would be 20% better for the sake of another £100 (a 3% price increase.) OK, I'm guessing - I don't know how much better the poly bushes would make it (or even if that could be quantified), and I don't know how much the price increment would be either, but I'm sure you see the point. While you are mentioning it, why aren't you doing the top mounts? It may be a false economy not to. (Bear in mind that the geo will be expensive - probably £150 expensive. And if you decide to fit the top mounts or poly bushes at a later date, you'll need to pay another £150 on top for another geo.)
I'm sounding very negative, preach-y and schoolmasterish, and I apologise. I just can't (personally) justify spending what is very nearly the full value of the car on some suspension. You say that KWv3's are the only kit that will increase the value of the car; any documented work done on a car will increase the value and make it more sale-able, and you need to bear in mind that you never ever get the value of modifications back when you sell the car.
Am I trying to talk you out of the KWv3's? No. And neither am I trying to talk you into having the bushes fitted. But I am trying to offer a contrasting point of view! Alan's route (costing less than £900) would leave you with enough change for a decent camera, a good holiday, some new carpets in your house, insurance for the next four years or a £2000 hole in your mortgage. (And, being a negative, preach-y, schoolmasterish old git, you can guess which I would choose.)
Oli.
Copperman05
New member
Your right its not simply maintanace, its more, and also pays for itself, in reliability, safety and long-term cost saving + better performance...
Copperman05
New member
Back on topic[&:]
Full set of poly bushes as quoted = £418.80 +4.75 hrs fitting @ £336 = £754.80 inc VAT, 21% of full price.
Edd
Full set of poly bushes as quoted = £418.80 +4.75 hrs fitting @ £336 = £754.80 inc VAT, 21% of full price.
Edd
What poly bushes are you buying? And which ones.
968 castor mounts are rated as a good mod, but I have standard 944 mounts and I'm using poly bushes which should offer the same improvement.
The full set from Floflex are £160.
How much is a full set of O.E. bushes incl. 968 castor mounts?
Can you get inner wishbone bushes from Porsche or do you have to buy complete arms?
Alan.
968 castor mounts are rated as a good mod, but I have standard 944 mounts and I'm using poly bushes which should offer the same improvement.
The full set from Floflex are £160.
How much is a full set of O.E. bushes incl. 968 castor mounts?
Can you get inner wishbone bushes from Porsche or do you have to buy complete arms?
Alan.
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