New Suspension, KW-V3?

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: loc944

What poly bushes are you buying? And which ones.
968 castor mounts are rated as a good mod, but I have standard 944 mounts and I'm using poly bushes which should offer the same improvement.

The full set from Floflex are £160.

How much is a full set of O.E. bushes incl. 968 castor mounts?

Can you get inner wishbone bushes from Porsche or do you have to buy complete arms?

Alan.

Powerflex bushes

Front wishbone polybush set

Front anti-roll bar polybush set

Front anti-roll bar eye bolt bush set

Front anti-roll bar eye bolt mount set

Rear anti-roll bar polybush set

Rear axle carrier outer polybush set

Rear trailing arm polybush set


How much is a full set of O.E. bushes incl. 968 castor mounts?
No idea, I'd like to know too!

Can you get inner wishbone bushes from Porsche or do you have to buy complete arms?
Ditto


Edd

 

[andrew_churcher]

Hi Edd - I had the KW3's fitted to my 964. I think the key question is do you really need the adjustability this kit provides? I have it set for fast road driving but in 9 mths since i have had it fitted I havent even been tempted to adjust it...though if i go to spa...i may wind it up to track spec. If you dont need the adjustability and just want to refresh the suspension I would consider other options....

Just my 2 cents.

I will take u for a spin if u want to see what the ride and handling is like.

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: andrew_churcher
I think the key question is do you really need the adjustability this kit provides?

Yes I want to have a trackable car...

Thanks, I have had rides in two kw fitted cars now, including RPM's 968 engined S2. The system felt very good. Besides there are more advantages to the kw suspension beyond its adjustability...

Edd

 

[Eldavo]

I fitted Konis to my car earlier this year. The front inserts are in M030 Koni height adjustable shock bodies and I've got 30mm drop Spax springs on there. Dropped the rear on the eccentrics as low as they allow and it's perfectly level and handles amazingly well.

I've set the Konis up and never touched them since, unless I venture to a track I doubt I will.

 

[steve 944t]

Going back to the re-indexing issue (sorry! []) I have long been of the opinion that you don't need to re-index when fitting KWs. My car was transformed and handled extremely well on road and track.
However... I have now changed my mind []. I had the TBs re-indexed earlier this year, along with a more aggressive geo set-up and the on track performance has improved massively. I now need to be in a higher gear in certain corners to avoid over-revving.
For a road-only car you can certainly get away without re-indexing, but if you want to get the full benefit of KWs on track, re-indexing is absolutely worth the extra costs. And it looks much cooler too []

So to Big Dave et al, with whom I may have disagreed in the past - ok, you were right!

 

[George Elliott]

And I am going to change an opinion I aired previously on this thread, its been suggested ARB poly bushes do not contribute to harshness, and I have to agree with this view.
Well spotted 944man and Alan[]
George
951

 

[colin944]

If you are going to poly bush your car remember to do the top mounts for the torsion bar housing.These wear out and always seem to be missed.I am looking at suspension options at the mo and feel koni's and short springs are the way for me to go.I already have a set of eibach springs.Already done every bush and mounting on the back and have a full set of polys for the front.I will go with 968 castor mounts,also have a set of 968 clubsport arbs to fit.I hope this will make for a good road car set up with the occasional track day.I cant see myself doing more than 2 track days a year but alot more road miles.Will re index back end in order to get the car level again .I don't see why you would pay someone to do this as it is not a hard job as long as you follow the process logically and do one side at a time.If you are in Scotland and want this done I would help you to do it.I have lowered loads of air cooled VWs over the years,they are all the same basic set up just variations on a theme.

 

[Copperman05]

Offer is appreciated, although you are a bit far from me. I still think re-indexing is the correct thing to do, and I must admit I've changed my mind on this too. 968 castors also seem a good bet as I've not had these fitted to my car as yet. I may well put poly bushes on the arb going by what people here are saying, there would be no labour for fitting either.

Edd

 

[colin944]

When I reindex the back end I will do a "how to" video and photo's .You will see it's not hard and can be done with very basic tools.It's only nuts and bolts.It's much harder to do if you are staring with all the bits on the floor.But of your car is all together then its easy.It all depends how much you want to move the rear by. Some people will just remove the spring plate and turn it one or two splines on the torsion bar.On a vw you need to turn one end one way and the other end the other way to get the right height.On a VW the torsion bar has a different number of slines on each end so you would turn one end 5 splines and the other 4 this would give you a 2 inch drop. But because the porsche set up has inbuilt adjustment then people will normally fine tune the rear by using the adjuster ecentric. I prefer to turn the bars as I don't like to have the spring plate and hubs at an angle.

 

[vitesse]

Which is alright if :-
a) You can get the car high enough to allow you to "crack" the eccentric & clamp bolts-on the 924S,I borrowed a 2-post lift & man with great long spanners & bar.

b) You also have to have a thin 35mm spanner to adjust the eccentic bolt head & hold it as you crack the nut.The other bolt & the nuts are 24mm.

I took both the eccentrics out of their holes & applied copperease grease to them liberally-but still had to hammer the spring plates to get them to rotate.

I then ran out of time & my local friendly MOTstation/garage who do my company vehicles ,then offered to adjust both arms together on their 4-post lift-they struggled to turn the eccentric head even with the weight on the wheels(adjusting more downwards to try & get the cills absolutely parallel with the ramps)-so had to leave it as best as possible.Since this was free,I can't complain.They are going to have another go-however again this has to be after hours as I didn't realise that an MOT station these days is not supposed to use their MOT lift for other work as it has to be available all times for MOT's while you wait.

My impression is that you need to take the weight off the wheels as you adjust the eccentrics-we will do it this way next attempt.
You can see the stance so far if you visit Mike Pollacks Jpegs at Curborough 964 day-mine is the wobbly red 924S.Needs a rear anti-roll bar & the turbo front A/R one I already have ready to fit.

 

[colin944]

That's why I prefer to turn spring plates on the bars.IN order to get the eccentrics to work ,you usually have to take the spring plates off and then spend alot of time freeing them off so that they slip past each other.Better to leave it alone and turn them on the bars.

 

[Jonny944CS]

Unfortunately, on a 944, you need to drop the rear TB housing from the car to re-index properly. Hence why racers cut holes into the panel in front of the rear wheel arch. If you do this you'll be able to set the spring-plates within 1 degree.

To give you an idea, a 968 running M030 with 25.5 bars and helper springs is set at spring-plate to reactor blade angle of 9 deg. Without the helper springs the the angle is 18 deg.

The 924 Haynes manual has an excellent description of the full indexing process - well worth a look.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: Jonny944CS

Part numbers for the Genuine M030 bushes (if still available)

Part # 1 - Front wishbone bushes (x4) - 951 341 041 31
# 2 - Rear wishbone bush (x2) - 951 341 023 01
# 3 - Torsion bar tube thrust mount (x2) - 951 331 088 30
# 4 - Rear trailing arm bushes (x4) - 951 331 059 30

I believe Hartech are also now offering their own versions of the stiffer bonded rubber front bushes.

As a side note just been looking these up in the 944 & 968 pdf katalogs. Those [front axle] rear wishbone bushes are the same part number for the 968. The torsion bar tube thrust mounts are almost the same number on the 968 but not exactly the same, 944 standard part completely different number. Neither katalog lists the front wishbone bushes hence why I asked about them.
Cheers Jonny.

 

[Big Dave]

ORIGINAL: steve 944t

Going back to the re-indexing issue (sorry! []) I have long been of the opinion that you don't need to re-index when fitting KWs. My car was transformed and handled extremely well on road and track.
However... I have now changed my mind []. I had the TBs re-indexed earlier this year, along with a more aggressive geo set-up and the on track performance has improved massively. I now need to be in a higher gear in certain corners to avoid over-revving.
For a road-only car you can certainly get away without re-indexing, but if you want to get the full benefit of KWs on track, re-indexing is absolutely worth the extra costs. And it looks much cooler too []

So to Big Dave et al, with whom I may have disagreed in the past - ok, you were right!

Steve,,,, Finally somebody gets it.....You can now see why i "banged" on so much, that to get THE best out of the car with KW fitted you NEED to re-index the rear...[][][][]

 

[pauly]

Yep and if I put another degree of negative on front and rear I'd be a gear higher through the corners, and I'd be scrubbing tyres on the road too, horses for courses.

 

[Ewan]

I now have the prices for new suspension from my local indie (JMG Porsche). The prices shown include shocks/springs/fitting and wheel realignment (so are the all-in cost to me).

Option 1. £1040 ex vat is for the standard Koni set up (non adjustable).

Option2. £1285 ex vat is for the height adjustable (MO30) Koni set up. (i.e. £245 ex vat more than option 1)

Option 3. £2270 ex vat is for the fully adjustable KWv3 set up. (i.e. £985 ex vat more than option 2). But this does not include re-indexing the rear torsion bar, which if necessary, would add somewhere between £300 and £800 ex vat. (depending on the length of time taken). So, there is a very real chance that the KWv3 system will cost a total of £2000 more than the Koni's.

Given that I am unlikely to track the car, or ever re-set anything once I've got it how I want it (in terms of spring rates and ride height), I am erring towards option 2. Given that the current suspension is 20 years and 90,000 miles old, I am sure this will provide a dramatic enough improvement.

Some buses have been replaced recently already, but by going with option 2 it also leaves a little in the kitty for possible other necessities such as replacement top-mounts or thicker anti-roll bars etc.

Decisions, decisions...

 

[Copperman05]

TBO £2270 seems alot without indexing, Promax's figure was more like £1800 without indexing and £2300 with, look to the quotes on page 4 of this thread.

Your right to compare the two but I believe the kw's are going to give you a much better ride and be more compliant over the m030 option which has a rep for being quite hard. Add the fact that they are state of the art, modern units compared to the 25 yr old technology used in the Koni's.

Its a once in a car ownership decision, if the cars a keeper I say go for the kw's, if not the Koni's will give a sportier ride for less cost.

I still think for what you get the kw's offer better value...

Edd

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05


Your right to compare the two but I believe the kw's are going to give you a much better ride and be more compliant over the m030 option which has a rep for being quite hard. Add the fact that they are state of the art, modern units compared to the 25 yr old technology used in the Koni's.

Edd

Exactly this - When I bought my car it had refurbished 968CS m030 suspension on it and it was rock hard, crashy and generally unplesant for road use at least. The KW's I now have fitted are leap years ahead in ability and ride (or at least a quarter of a century !) There really is no comparison between the two imho.

 

[zcacogp]

Whoosh! Those prices are expensive! Wasn't someone doing KWv3's for £1200 or something, including fitting, a couple of years ago? Those prices, assuming re-indexing costs £550 (mid-point price) come to a total of £3384. Given that I have seen reasonable S2's go for £3500 (and rough turbos go for the same money), that's a LOT.

But ... are there any more details on options 1 and 2? 'Standard Koni' is what, exactly? The standard shocks are Fichtel and Sachs, and non-adjustable. There was a Koni-made 'M030' option which were (as I understand it) rebound- and height- adjustable - which I presume is what you are referring to as option 2.

There is another Koni option, which involves either cutting the existing shocks and using Koni inserts (which is what I have), or buying ready built-up Koni shocks, but both of these options are rebound-adjustable. Is this what you are referring to as option 1?


Oli.

 

[pauly]

How much are KW's now ?, as for re-indexing depends on the car and use, I'd drop the car on the spring plates and see how it sits, as long as you can take some weight on the coilovers and still have reasonable ride height it will work.