What boost do you run?

[TTM]

I'm sure you will get nothing but positive results. When will that be ready?

You may have seen it already, here is the dyno sheet from a friend's 3.0 engine with the Lindsey intake.
When a standard 968 turbo S makes a remarkable 368 lbs.ft (500 N.m) at 3000 rpm with the 951 intake, he sees that even earlier at 2700 rpm and it spreads up until 6100 rpm. Apart from another friend's 1200 bhp muscle car, this is the fastest car I have ever been in. Mine is no slouch but his is borderline insane.

 

[barks944]

That torque curve is phenominal. Can you share the full specs?

 

[333pg333]

My experience tells me never to assume anything is ever going to be ready when one needs it, so I don't really know to be honest. It's also slightly hinging on selling all my LINK ECU, harness, cdi setup which is in the U.S. too. I haven't made much of an effort on that front so I've contributed to the pace of the project somewhat. I'm hoping for some more progress however my guess is that it won't be ready for our first trips back to the dyno with the 'new' car and motor. Having said that, seeing this motor with it's current intake and what characteristics it shows will be interesting on many levels also. Not just performance related....

The LR intake enjoys a reaction that polarises the community. That's the reason I've not gone down that path previously. Curiously I've heard that the power curve is shifted to the right with that piece however your friend's dyno would contradict that. When I was discussing the stock intake with the guy down here I suggested that it should be 'ok' as "The Porsche factory would have spent plenty of hour$ on it" therefore providing something of a reasonable capability. His answer was not necessarily. He feels that a lot of factory intakes are designed as much for packaging as performance (discussing road cars) and his view was that our stock part 'looked' like it would have a few problems due to inequality between the cylinders. I didn't get him to flow it as I pulled the pin on that project.

 

[TTM]

Tom, his 3.0 engine is internally pretty much the same as mine, except it runs a K26/8 turbo modified with modern 3K-BW compressor and turbine wheels, a full 3" exhaust with cat, a custom twin intercooler, and the standard Bosch Motronic modified to run a MAP sensor instead of the AFM. It was all done by http://www.etg-technik.de/. I met this guy again this Summer during a barbecue with 4 other 3.0T guys, does very good work. I first saw his modified Motronic 5 or 6 years ago. He makes turbos, exhaust and stuff.

Patrick, my friend Marcus with this engine said he moved to the Lindsey intake as the standard one prevented him from breaking the 380 hp barrier. I think your intake guy is right on the money - most factory intakes are designed to make turbocharged engines easy to drive on the road to the average driver. And at the risk of repeating myself, reusing on a 3.0 engine the exact same intake as on a 2.5 engine says it all, in my opinion, especially on a turbocharged engine.

 

[nick_968]

We have spoken about the Lindsey intake before, I think a few of us are looking for the elusive intake that actually makes a difference to our cars. Its a lot of money to splash out without hard data to prove the results and effect on the torque curve. It certainly looks like he had good results with this intake. Does he still run a standard camshaft?

 

[barks944]

Think I'm going to have to build a flow bench.... On a side note my DME can now detect and count knock outputs. Next step, closed loop ignition control. Going to wire it up tomorrow . New EGT sensor should arrive next week so it can read that in as well.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: nick_968
It certainly looks like he had good results with this intake. Does he still run a standard camshaft?

He runs a 9R camshaft.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: TTM

ORIGINAL: nick_968
It certainly looks like he had good results with this intake. Does he still run a standard camshaft?

He runs a 9R camshaft.

Interesting. Does he use a standard 2.7 head with no additional port or valve work?

 

[TTM]

As far as I know, there is no specific head work at all. Std 2.7 intake valves and turbo exhaust valves.

 

[333pg333]

This is the Facebook page of the local Intake guy I was going to use. I spoke to him a few times and I believe he could have made something that would have been an effective improvement over the stock version. http://www.facebook.com/customplenumcreations

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: TTM

As far as I know, there is no specific head work at all. Std 2.7 intake valves and turbo exhaust valves.

What boost is he running on that dyno chart above?

It is interesting to see that he is getting just under 430hp and pretty much a perfect torque curve with such a wide power band. It looks like the only significant difference (compared to our engines) in his setup is the intake. It does make sense though that if the standard intake has some imbalance and the Lindsey intake flows as evenly as they claim (flow balanced and tested), that indeed there would be some power coming from optimising the flow to all cylinders. It also follows that with all cylinders working evenly that boost would come on sooner resulting in faster spool as well resulting in a wider power band.

 

[George Elliott]

As far as I know, there is no specific head work at all. Std 2.7 intake valves and turbo exhaust valves.

TTM
that is a wonderful performance graph, can I ask what the engine spec is - I am picturing a 3.0L, 2.7 Head, 9R Cam, larger Turbo, MAF unit, 3" DP&Exhaust, larger injectors, LR Inlet manifold, and a suitable ECU chip..........is that it?

thanks
George
944t

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

As far as I know, there is no specific head work at all. Std 2.7 intake valves and turbo exhaust valves.

TTM
that is a wonderful performance graph, can I ask what the engine spec is - I am picturing a 3.0L, 2.7 Head, 9R Cam, larger Turbo, MAF unit, 3" DP&Exhaust, larger injectors, LR Inlet manifold, and a suitable ECU chip..........is that it?

thanks
George
944t

George, MAP not MAF with a modifed Motronic to make the MAP sensor work. Other than that it looks to be a fairly standard 3.0 8v similar to mine and Thoms as you detail above. Mine has a (supposedly) more performance oriented cam, but I am yet to be convinced it makes much difference, especially looking at the power curve above!

 

[333pg333]

Thom, do you know at what psi and also is that to the crank or wheels?
Edit: just saw this is a k26/8. Would have to be at the crank at the very max modified or not.

 

[nick_968]

Has to be crank surely.....we are talking euro horses here not US super ponies

 

[TTM]

Yes, these are figures at the crank, with 1.2 bar of boost.

I don't have a curve showing boost against RPM but I suppose he's running a copious amount of ignition advance to get that much torque so early, considering that the shorter runners of the Lindsey intake should shift the torque band to upper RPM for the same ignition settings. His turbo is as quiet as a std turbo and the exhaust note not particularly intrusive. The larger engine size gives it a deep bass note but it all feels pretty much like an electric car, with a huge torque kick very early that seems to last forever. He mentioned a peak exhaust back pressure of 2 bar, so I think his turbo may be sized perfectly to spool as soon as possible yet breath still decently in upper RPM, again with the suited ignition mapping. The compressor should flow much more than a K26, as I said this KKK-based turbo is using modern KKK-BW internals.
He did mention to me that he may like to try a slightly larger compressor so that the engine becomes a bit more lively and "fun" up top, at the cost of losing a bit low down torque and being slightly less efficient overall, but that's not a priority at the moment.

Nick, I think you would break the 450 bhp without too much effort with a Lindsey intake, thanks to your JME camshaft and to the SPS compressor that I think should flow more than this KKK exotic.

ORIGINAL: nick_968
It does make sense though that if the standard intake has some imbalance and the Lindsey intake flows as evenly as they claim (flow balanced and tested), that indeed there would be some power coming from optimising the flow to all cylinders. It also follows that with all cylinders working evenly that boost would come on sooner resulting in faster spool as well resulting in a wider power band.

I'm far from being an expert in flow mechanics, but judgeing by the look of both intakes it's hard for me not to think that the Lindsey intake will flow more evenly between all cylinders than the 951 intake. The inlet to the plenum may be in between runners 2 & 3, but this should have an insignificant influence under boost, and I don't see this being any worse than on the std intake. I am nearly wanting to find a used Lindsey intake to try it out myself and put it on our flow bench to see how it compares with the other intakes I have tested so far.

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

Has to be crank surely.....we are talking euro horses here not US super ponies

I wonder what % equation they use to calculate power at the crank then? That also is a subject of varying opinions. Assuming this is not on an engine dyno.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

ORIGINAL: nick_968

Has to be crank surely.....we are talking euro horses here not US super ponies

I wonder what % equation they use to calculate power at the crank then? That also is a subject of varying opinions. Assuming this is not on an engine dyno.

Probably very accurate knowing ze Germans!

 

[barks944]

You calculate the frictional losses in the engine and drivetrain during the overun after the power run. Basically instead of driving the dyno rollers your decellerating them and it calculates the losses from that.

 

[TTM]

To put the dyno sheet above into perspective, here is another one from a standard 2.5 turbo engine fitted with another one of these special KKK turbos, here with a modified #6 turbine housing. These figures are about in line with what we are used to hear from mildly modified 2.5 engines, aren't they?