Suspension Upgrade for 944 S2
- Thread starter herbie75
- Start date
pauljmcnulty
New member
Now that's really thrown me....I like the rear on the D90s, but the front looks hugely better on Cup 3s.....[&:]
I'll stick to my tiddly teledials! [
]
I'll stick to my tiddly teledials! [
]
In all honesty I cant say the 968CS springs have made any difference, pretty much handles the same just sits better. The hight is spot on now front and back, measured them, all within 5mm when sitting on the road, didn't need to adjust the rears so quite happy with it now. [
]ORIGINAL: nick3814
In all honesty I cant say the 968CS springs have made any difference, pretty much handles the same just sits better. The hight is spot on now front and back, measured them, all within 5mm when sitting on the road, didn't need to adjust the rears so quite happy with it now. [
So they make no differences in terms of handling and comfort? Not even stiffer?
TTM
Active member
ORIGINAL: nick3814
No they don't feel any stiffer when driving, just the same as before, but then they weren't particularly soft in the first place, but that could just be me [
Interesting ... I found the CS springs quite better than the original S2 springs, both in conjunction with M474 S2 struts.
Have you done a back to back comparison with the 16" wheels ? Those huge 18" wheels affect handling and steering feel more than swapping the springs alone ...
The cups 3's are 17" not 18", I wont fit 18's, think they look too much but 17" are just right. Used both the 16" and 17" on the new springs and can honestly say I don't notice any difference. I suppose its down to how you drive it, I don't through the S2 around, thats what the 911 is for [].
].ORIGINAL: TTM
ORIGINAL: nick3814
No they don't feel any stiffer when driving, just the same as before, but then they weren't particularly soft in the first place, but that could just be me [
Interesting ... I found the CS springs quite better than the original S2 springs, both in conjunction with M474 S2 struts.
Have you done a back to back comparison with the 16" wheels ? Those huge 18" wheels affect handling and steering feel more than swapping the springs alone ...
What are the M474 S2 strust.Are they the original standard S2 struts or something else?
ORIGINAL: herbie75
Dropped the car off this morning with Andy at Promax to have all the parts fitted, together with a set of Cup 2 wheels I found on ebay. I'll be excitedly picking it up tuesday and I'll post a picture of the results.....[
Hi Herbie ... Have you got your car back yet ? If so how is it ? i take it you have had this lot fitted :
968CS FRONT SPRINGS £87.68
968 FRONT M030 ROLL BAR £114.40
BUSHES FOR ABOVE £10.95 (PAIR)
BUSHES FOR ABOVE £10.95 (PAIR)
WASHERS FOR ABOVE £0.74 (PAIR)
968 REAR M030 ROLL BAR FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION £64.69
BUSHES FOR ABOVE £4.59 (PAIR)
Steve.
Where to start...?
M474 is Koni, just not the same Koni as M030. Nick F had a pantomime and a half trying to get M474s that were the same rate each side (Exeter OPC worked with him brilliantly on sorting it). I think ultimately he liked the end result, but so does eveyone who refreshes the S2 suspension, even with standard stuff and there hasn't really been any direct comparison by the same people between a fresh standard and a fresh M474 setup that I'm aware of.
I'd buy my KW from K300 again (both in terms of what I'd choose and where I'd source it). Mine was significantly less than 1350 Pounds from them and they came up with a similar price when I looked at fitting a set to my RS6 late last year.
You definitely need to reindex the torsions to fit KW and Andy is right - you might well need to replace all the axle mounts when you get in there as the bond between the rubber and metal bracket breaks down - parts were eye-watering when I did it given what they are. He's also right about the fuel lines, and you may as well do the brake lines at the same time. Do all that and you're looking at a bag of sand plus just for the extras. Having said that actually reindexing once the axle is off isn't difficult. If you want to replace the rubber bushes with solid (or better, roller) then that is hassle too though as they are also bonded to the torsion tube.
Adrian (Chris's predecessor at Exeter, and still there as after sales manager) got hold of a load of rear M030 shocks once which I guess included Rich's ones. He asked me not to say what he sold me a set for at the time, but I guess it's long enough ago that it doesn't matter now; it was under 100 notes inclusive for the pair. I guess that the new old stock has all been snapped up and sold hence the current prices are for new new stock.
Note that it's always worth checking with Exeter as they often buy up the last of some bits Porsche are trying to shift out of their warehouse and selling very cheap so they may have 944 bits in stock for way less (like 20% of the cost) of what other OPCs can get them for: New 944T flywheel 380+VAT (I think) - I paid 55 quid all up. That's where the Big Black and M030 ARB bargains came from.
I wouldn't bother with M030 struts / rear shocks at all personally. It's too stiff and crashy for the road and feels like the 25 year old technology it is on the track, and it's not even that adjustable. The same goes for the ARBs unless you value cheapness above virtually everything else: Rear bar has "oversteer', "understeer' or "neutral" settings (i.e. pointless) and front isn't adjustable at all and still uses the Mickey Mouse stock mounting point - I didn't even fit the set I bought. Properly adjustable Weltmeister ones with proper solid mounting to the chassis and Rose jointed links is the way to go and make the M030 ones look like toys.
I'm surprised at the CS spring prices; they used to be about 115 squids each before the dreaded as I recall. As Dave said they do fit non M030 944T & S2. I had a pair on my S2 back in 2000. I can't say I noticed any difference in the way it drove though. I also refreshed my S2 cab with standard shocks/struts using the original springs and it was night and day compared with before and fine for road use.
M474 is Koni, just not the same Koni as M030. Nick F had a pantomime and a half trying to get M474s that were the same rate each side (Exeter OPC worked with him brilliantly on sorting it). I think ultimately he liked the end result, but so does eveyone who refreshes the S2 suspension, even with standard stuff and there hasn't really been any direct comparison by the same people between a fresh standard and a fresh M474 setup that I'm aware of.
I'd buy my KW from K300 again (both in terms of what I'd choose and where I'd source it). Mine was significantly less than 1350 Pounds from them and they came up with a similar price when I looked at fitting a set to my RS6 late last year.
You definitely need to reindex the torsions to fit KW and Andy is right - you might well need to replace all the axle mounts when you get in there as the bond between the rubber and metal bracket breaks down - parts were eye-watering when I did it given what they are. He's also right about the fuel lines, and you may as well do the brake lines at the same time. Do all that and you're looking at a bag of sand plus just for the extras. Having said that actually reindexing once the axle is off isn't difficult. If you want to replace the rubber bushes with solid (or better, roller) then that is hassle too though as they are also bonded to the torsion tube.
Adrian (Chris's predecessor at Exeter, and still there as after sales manager) got hold of a load of rear M030 shocks once which I guess included Rich's ones. He asked me not to say what he sold me a set for at the time, but I guess it's long enough ago that it doesn't matter now; it was under 100 notes inclusive for the pair. I guess that the new old stock has all been snapped up and sold hence the current prices are for new new stock.
Note that it's always worth checking with Exeter as they often buy up the last of some bits Porsche are trying to shift out of their warehouse and selling very cheap so they may have 944 bits in stock for way less (like 20% of the cost) of what other OPCs can get them for: New 944T flywheel 380+VAT (I think) - I paid 55 quid all up. That's where the Big Black and M030 ARB bargains came from.
I wouldn't bother with M030 struts / rear shocks at all personally. It's too stiff and crashy for the road and feels like the 25 year old technology it is on the track, and it's not even that adjustable. The same goes for the ARBs unless you value cheapness above virtually everything else: Rear bar has "oversteer', "understeer' or "neutral" settings (i.e. pointless) and front isn't adjustable at all and still uses the Mickey Mouse stock mounting point - I didn't even fit the set I bought. Properly adjustable Weltmeister ones with proper solid mounting to the chassis and Rose jointed links is the way to go and make the M030 ones look like toys.
I'm surprised at the CS spring prices; they used to be about 115 squids each before the dreaded as I recall. As Dave said they do fit non M030 944T & S2. I had a pair on my S2 back in 2000. I can't say I noticed any difference in the way it drove though. I also refreshed my S2 cab with standard shocks/struts using the original springs and it was night and day compared with before and fine for road use.
Im very intrested in new suspension for my 1990 s2 and i have read everything here in great detail but i have to say im lost...and now thinking of just selling my car and buying a westfield or elise...[] Even though i love my car and i use it the same amount of time on a track as i do off im not sure i would want to pay the two and a half grand on a suspension upgrade...and from what im reading its not realy worth doing anything else...i wouldnt mind fitting the Koni inserts and the MO30 roll bars but i wouldnt want to go to the exspence of having the torsion bar reindexed...and if the Konis realy arnt worth doing then im thinking i might just be better off buying a car thats already for road and track !.
] Even though i love my car and i use it the same amount of time on a track as i do off im not sure i would want to pay the two and a half grand on a suspension upgrade...and from what im reading its not realy worth doing anything else...i wouldnt mind fitting the Koni inserts and the MO30 roll bars but i wouldnt want to go to the exspence of having the torsion bar reindexed...and if the Konis realy arnt worth doing then im thinking i might just be better off buying a car thats already for road and track !.Steve,
The S2 was never designed as a track car, hence the standard kit is not going to be anywhere near track optimised. Koni M030 is better than the original, but not that great in real terms and absolutely not worth the money (which was more than the cost of KW back when I made the decision what to fit, though not by as much as it is now).
I'd suggest that KW can be sourced for under 1,200 Pounds (delivered to your door) if you talk to the right people - I could be wrong as I haven't checked for a while, but I doubt that I am. If you can spanner a bit you can fit it yourself. You can ignore the rear axle mounts and fuel/brake lines if you like (after all by not checking them they aren't any more or less less failed whatever you do; you're just burying your head in the sand rather than check them out), but if you need to replace them then you won't get a better "while I'm in there" opportunity.
I haven't driven KW with anything other than Weltmeister anti-roll bars, but with only one exception that I know of all the other KW owners have either standard or M030 ARBs and I think everyone is still happy.
You do need a geometry setup after fitting it, but nothing is a black art. I used the most aggressive permissible factory settings (as I recall from the '89 model year) and had mine set accurately to the most aggressive end of tolerance.
I used Big Dave's (original) damper settings combined with KW's height recommendations, both freely available (unless Dave has gone coy). Like that its only vice was some understeer which I chose to dial out by increasing the camber using adjustable top mounts, though I could have tried something with the ARB or damper settings. After that it was planted. Could it be better? I don't know as it was a chassis so far ahead of my driving ability that I couldn't find the limit, so I think it was good enough for most people.
I don't know your situation, but if you want to use your track toy on the road then an S2 with KW will be fine (better than standard in fact), and it will be night and day different to how it is now on track. It will also be "the Devil you know" in terms of its mechanical state.
If on the other hand a Caterfield fits the bill for your road use and you have the budget to buy one then I suspect that it would be more fun on track. The current value of a decent S2 plus even 2k for suspension wouldn't buy a good one though, would it? I pass on commenting on the Lotus suggestion as the only one I ever drove was too slow to be fun (for me anyway) and they look like they'd cost a fortune in bodywork if you had a bump.
The S2 was never designed as a track car, hence the standard kit is not going to be anywhere near track optimised. Koni M030 is better than the original, but not that great in real terms and absolutely not worth the money (which was more than the cost of KW back when I made the decision what to fit, though not by as much as it is now).
I'd suggest that KW can be sourced for under 1,200 Pounds (delivered to your door) if you talk to the right people - I could be wrong as I haven't checked for a while, but I doubt that I am. If you can spanner a bit you can fit it yourself. You can ignore the rear axle mounts and fuel/brake lines if you like (after all by not checking them they aren't any more or less less failed whatever you do; you're just burying your head in the sand rather than check them out), but if you need to replace them then you won't get a better "while I'm in there" opportunity.
I haven't driven KW with anything other than Weltmeister anti-roll bars, but with only one exception that I know of all the other KW owners have either standard or M030 ARBs and I think everyone is still happy.
You do need a geometry setup after fitting it, but nothing is a black art. I used the most aggressive permissible factory settings (as I recall from the '89 model year) and had mine set accurately to the most aggressive end of tolerance.
I used Big Dave's (original) damper settings combined with KW's height recommendations, both freely available (unless Dave has gone coy). Like that its only vice was some understeer which I chose to dial out by increasing the camber using adjustable top mounts, though I could have tried something with the ARB or damper settings. After that it was planted. Could it be better? I don't know as it was a chassis so far ahead of my driving ability that I couldn't find the limit, so I think it was good enough for most people.
I don't know your situation, but if you want to use your track toy on the road then an S2 with KW will be fine (better than standard in fact), and it will be night and day different to how it is now on track. It will also be "the Devil you know" in terms of its mechanical state.
If on the other hand a Caterfield fits the bill for your road use and you have the budget to buy one then I suspect that it would be more fun on track. The current value of a decent S2 plus even 2k for suspension wouldn't buy a good one though, would it? I pass on commenting on the Lotus suggestion as the only one I ever drove was too slow to be fun (for me anyway) and they look like they'd cost a fortune in bodywork if you had a bump.
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