Strange days.....and future values?

[pauljmcnulty]

Today, we've seen a Silver Rose sell for "acceptable" money (please tell, Martin!), and a turbo cab snapped up at just under £15K ( I only passed the contact over on Friday!).

On the same day, we're seeing criticism of a dealer selling cars for top money. If you factor in say 20% as a minimum mark-up for a trader, and accept that people can choose to pay that much more for a car with a warranty, then it seems odd to me that they get questioned.

Don't we now have to start accepting higher prices for the rarer 944s, as we seem to be in that perfect storm where the good cars are harder to find, the image is on the rise, and money in the bank is a dead loss so people are looking for other ways to invest?

By rare, I have a personal scale that I'd like your opinions on. Am I in the right ball-park? Mileage, history and condition, of course, but if all these are equal, how do you rank the range by future desirability?

Top for me is either a turbo cab, or a turbo S in original, un-molested form (preferably in the right colour, as a Silver Rose with the correct interior is more collectible than one in red with black leather). Moving down, an un-molested 220 turbo. Then, the last turbos with bridge spoiler, followed by any straight 250 turbo.

An S2 cab might slot in above some turbos, but definitely above a coupe. As the pick of the range [8|], the S2 coupe comes next.

Now we're in to the difficult bit. Where do the pre-ugly bumper cars [] divide up?

Personally, I think there's more interest in the original models when age becomes a factor. So many cars are worth a fortune over their more competant, developed later incarnations: Any Ford, any M3, any E-type. Golf GTI, MGB, Defender, the better, newer models aren't as desirable for some reason.

So, I'd stick my neck out and rank the narrow-bumper cars: 1982 Lux, followed by any other series one Lux. Then, the S, followed by the 2.7 or limited editions like the Studio, then a series 2 8-valve as the bottom of the heap.

The irony is I've ranked my favourite 944 last. That's where the buyer comes in, of course, as I want minimum cost and maximum fun, I want to drive it at least a few times a week, and I can't worry about condition as it lives outside and is driven in all weathers. [&:]

 

[MartinRS2K]

Hi Paul, it was my 91MY Turbo with 51k miles that has been sold not the Silver Rose. All I will say regarding the price us it was very close to the £18k asking price.

Regarding which is the most valuable I can only comment on the later cars as I have little knowledge of the earlier cars. I would put them as follows personally if it was my money :-

Turbo S Silver Rose
Turbo S
Late 944 Turbo
Late 944 Turbo Cab (reason for the cab being less IMO is they are less practical and not as rigid for quick driving and attract a smaller market of buyers)
S2
220 Turbo
S2 Cab (sane as Turbo Cab)

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Thanks, Martin.

I guess the turbo cab thing is down to rarity rather than what you'd choose to drive every day. Only 100 RHD cars made, around the 60 mark left in the UK, there aren't many on the market at any one time and it's on the collector's list in a sort of "gone in 60 seconds" way?

By definition, driving one destroys the value with every mile, so whether it's a compromised car to drive isn't really relevant. [&o]

 

[ALZ 1933]

I sold my 1988 2.5 Lux back in October for just under £4k. I had an agreed insurance value of £7k as I knew to replace it would not have been an easy task. I could have held out for more money than I got but I sold it on to a club member and this saved me the inconvenience of advertising and also storing the car as I had already purchased a 968.
There's been many other 944 for sale since I sold mine of varying models S, S2 etc all being advertised for less money with less miles. However its the condition and history that makes the cars value.

I'm glad that my car was sold to a somebody I know as it saved me advertising it on the forums. Even if i made a perfect advert with every piece of information required, I'm sure the keyboard warriors who would have had no intent on buying it would like to criticise my asking price. After reading all the abuse some people have received in recent times it wouldn't have been a pleasant experience.

Bringing it back on topic, base model 1988 944 Lux, over 130k still worth £4000+ and I'd like to think they'll continue to rise

 

[George Elliott]

Interesting as I had a guy call in at work where my 944t is parked in view of the road. He asked to speak to the owner, "would you by any chance wish to sell your turbo?"
Pleasant gent. He had a 924 and was looking to move up

Back on topic, my ranking of the cars is:

450hp modified 944t on good base car
400hp modified 944t on good base car
turbo Cup Car
turbo S Silver Rose
turbo S
1989 model year 944T (diff, Seats, Brakes, Non-cat, forged CS rims etc)
Pre-ABS turbo (with diff, fuchs, sports seats ideally)
other turbo Coupes
other turbo Cabs

- so, the best cars are actually the ones we built ourselves....[]

George
944t

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

I think it's very difficult to place them in orders because there might be a buyer looking for a mint early Lux and a later Turbo doesn't interest him/her.

Is it not also the case with classics that it's eventually the earliest cars and the rarest produced that become the most sought after, not necessarily always the best of the particular model.

Having owned, a Lux, three S2's and a 968 I can say that a cab would be the last on my list, infact I would never have one but I can see where the Turbo Cab would rank highly purely on its rarity.

i think a very very early 2.5 in great condition will become sought after purely as its uncluttered lines, smaller wheels etc are becoming more appreciated.

There will always be the pick of the crop all things being equal but I believe that mileage, history and condition will always come into play at the higher price end as opposed to the model designation.

Personally, a 88 Turbo S in non Silver Rose would be top of my list, like this one now for sale @ £17,995

http://www.paul-stephens.com/Porsche-944-Turbo-S/car6624

Cheers

 

[Frenchy]

Mr Ruddy mine is not for sale though it has non standard seats and wheels, the originals are here and i may fit them back on this year, i still agonise about selling my 86 turbo as it was totally original and very solid in fact mint body and chassis wise though a few mechanical gremlins had caught up with it after lay up but easily fixable.
Well done with the sale Martin someone has bought a "minter" there, very rare in that condition and worth every penny, where did it go to ?
Mileage is not an issue with me personally as i have preached on these forums for years, condition, condition and provenance !
My Favourites :
Silverose
Turbo S (M758 MY88)
944 S2
83/84 Lux with cookie cutters.

Nice car at Paul Stephens, i genuinely think the time is nigh for good 944 examples as i know some people in the trade who have given up on the aircooled 911 stuff with no profit in them if they can source them, 996 turbos on the up, then classic Porsche (where the money is going) 944, 928 followed by 968, Club Sports are already on that rise

 

[Suffolk944]

Values and an appreciation of just how good 944's are both are on the rise and it can only be a good thing. I would say that while there is probably a general "pecking order" in that as set out above I don't believe its set in stone as different models will and do appeal to different people.

Compared with other supposed classics of a similar era which are essentially run of the mill mediocrity but which now sell for stupid money, all 944's are still criminally under valued. Its great that this is slowly changing and hopefully it will encourage more people to look after and maintain these cars properly rather than have them viewed of as bangers to be used and abused until they break which was happening to Lux's at least not so long ago.

Of course rising prices also raises the chances of the less scrupulous trying to pass off poor examples for big money but guess caveat emptor and all that !

 

[zcacogp]

Sorry to buck the trend here, but I find the whole discussion about prices a bit nauseating. Does it matter which model is worth what, or whether the prices are going up, down sideways or otherwise? Really?

This is PCGB. An enthusiasts forum. For people who like the cars, like driving them and like to talk to other enthusiasts. It's not an investors forum, a speculators forum or a forum for people who are into waving their willies around price-wise. It's rare that I will make a genuinely serious comment on this forum (you may have noticed!) but I really am finding this almost endless chatter about values very, very tedious.

If you want to talk about prices, here's an investors forum:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

A quick google has brought this one up as well:

http://boards.thisismoney.co.uk/

If you want my advice, I invested very heavily in Fundsmith when it floated around four years ago and have comfortably doubled my money, and expect it to do the same again in the next few years. While this is nice, it is nothing at all to do with the car I choose to drive. I chose a 944 for a dozen reasons, and cost, value, future value and all the rest of it were not amongst those reasons.

Strange days indeed when a bunch of 944 owners are sitting around speculating about the value of their cars.


Oli.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

This is PCGB. An enthusiasts forum. For people who like the cars, like driving them and like to talk to other enthusiasts. It's not an investors forum, a speculators forum or a forum for people who are into waving their willies around price-wise. It's rare that I will make a genuinely serious comment on this forum (you may have noticed!) but I really am finding this almost endless chatter about values very, very tedious.

I don't know how to answer a serious post from you, Oli! []

I think you're wrong: values are one of the key subjects for us to discuss for many reasons.

Most importantly, many of us have agreed-value policies. Keeping up to date with current values is critical to keeping these policies valid.

The cars get bought and sold. The buyer and sellers need somewhere to help with pricing, and a forum discussion can be better than merely trawling the "for sale" ads, where prices can be all over the place.

I've spoken to three people this week alone about values, and it's only Wednesday morning. I need to be abreast of values, for both insurance and buying/selling advice.

Values matter when it comes to running/repairing/restoring cars as well. Knowing that a nice-ish late Lux (or an "8v non-turbo series two 944" to please the pedants []) might sell for £3K now, as opposed to £1K a few years ago, means approaching the cost of work on the car differently.

That's just a few things, I'm sure there are more. It might be tedious, but I think it's important. I certainly don't see it as willy-waving, or suggesting that many 944s could be an investment. That's a different conversation, and limited to a very small number of cars IMO.

 

[GPF]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Sorry to buck the trend here, but I find the whole discussion about prices a bit nauseating. Does it matter which model is worth what, or whether the prices are going up, down sideways or otherwise? Really?

This is PCGB. An enthusiasts forum. For people who like the cars, like driving them and like to talk to other enthusiasts. It's not an investors forum, a speculators forum or a forum for people who are into waving their willies around price-wise. It's rare that I will make a genuinely serious comment on this forum (you may have noticed!) but I really am finding this almost endless chatter about values very, very tedious.
Oli.

Then don't bother reading the threads that clearly have values, prices, market or any other giveaway in the thread title"¦...[]

Seriously, this is clearly a subject that is of interest to the enthusiast, particularly as it will relate to their ability to add another car to the fleet, or trade up to a model they have always wanted to drive and enjoy.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Sorry to buck the trend here, but I find the whole discussion about prices a bit nauseating. Does it matter which model is worth what, or whether the prices are going up, down sideways or otherwise? Really?

This is PCGB. An enthusiasts forum. For people who like the cars, like driving them and like to talk to other enthusiasts. It's not an investors forum, a speculators forum or a forum for people who are into waving their willies around price-wise. It's rare that I will make a genuinely serious comment on this forum (you may have noticed!) but I really am finding this almost endless chatter about values very, very tedious.


Oli.

Very valid points Oli ! Personally I think its a question of degrees. Value (or lack of ) of our cars is an issue worth discussing but I would certainly agree that there are far more interesting things to be mulled over and if discussions on value was to descend into an endless round of mutual back slapping and angst about residuals that you get elsewhere then that really would get nauseating.

For me its more a case that these excellent cars are getting some long due appreciation outside our select band of enthusiasts. The flip side is that were prices high at the time of when I first got interested in 944's then I would have had no chance of owning one and it would be a true shame if rising prices changed what has always been a refreshingly down to earth and non pretentious group of owners into something else entirely...

And I certainly wouldn't want all these discussions about values to get in the way of far more valid opportunities to demonstrate how superior the Turbo is over and above the S2 []

 

[tref]

Funnily enough driving into work this morning I passed two Caymans and a 911 in the opposite direction. I didn't bother lifting a hand - I don't expect the marquee to be recognised. The days of waving to fellow 944 drivers are now very few and far between. I ended up wondering... A few years ago there was a perception that the 944 was the poor relation, and hence Boxster drivers would rarely wave at a 944. I am now in the habit of not bothering get to wave at a Boxster. Now the Boxster is the new 944, will 944 owners come across as aloof to Boxster owners?

 

[zcacogp]

Prices are relevant. But nowhere near as relevant as the amount of discussion they get on here would seem to be. For a bunch of owners to sit around discussing how much their cars are worth is like sniffing your own farts; some people may be into it but it't not what this forum is for. Some things in life are better value than others, and the value of items change with time - but that's been the same since the concept of money was invented 3000 years ago.

Looking at the front page of the 944 forum, stickied-threads aside, we have this thread about future values, "Porsche 944 fantasy prices" and "Guards red 944 turbo - is this where prices are at now?", all about values. "Nice S2" has also turned into a discussion about prices (in which I admit I participated.) That's four threads in 11 - over a third of the discussion here. Is one-third of the point of owning a 944 really about the value of it? I'll dispute the fact that the value of a car makes much difference to owning it; I have spent considerably more than the value of a car on maintenance of it in years gone by, because I know it to be a good car and worth more than it's book value to me. A good example is that I spent over £2000 in my third year of ownership of my S2 when it quite possibly wasn't worth £2000. Did that deter me? No - the true value of a car is far more than what it's worth in pounds shillings and pence; only a cad, cynic or investor thinks along purely financial lines.

If discussion about prices and values really is so important then please can we have a separate sub-forum dedicated to it, in order that enthusiasts who enjoy the cars for what they are may not be troubled by them. Thanks.


Oli.

 

[andy watson]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

If discussion about prices and values really is so important then please can we have a separate sub-forum dedicated to it, in order that enthusiasts who enjoy the cars for what they are may not be troubled by them. Thanks.

Oli.

Hi Oli, you not get a good nights sleep last night?? [][][]

Not that important to me either, but for insurance purposes it has to be handy.
A sub-forum isn't required though surely, this is just one of those discussions that you ignore ??

 

[DavidL]

I think another issue are different prices for the same car depending on whether you are buying, selling, insuring or negotiating with the insurance.

Insurance prices tend to be higher as you need to know what it would cost you to replace your car to the same condition and spec from what is on the market. This may well be higher than you might price yours or that you would achieve in a private sale.

Equally we need to be bullish about prices as the insurance co need some point of reference.

And the market is a bit mad currently. £10k for a mini clubman estate anyone?

The 928 list has seen big jumps last year. In Jan 14 you could buy a decent but not perfect gts auto for 15-18k or so but now that car would be priced anything up to 10k more. Even s4 autos are hitting 5 figures now. So there is no reason why 944 shouldn't follow suit.

Its part of the reason why I'm investigating new sills!

 

[MarkK]

[]I am interested in 944 values,and hearing that people are getting better returns for their nice examples,not so i can drool over my "investment"[&:] but so in my man maths kind of way i don't feel so bad spending money yearly on a car i don't really need but like owning.
Loads more market interest in late turbos at the minute,Turbo S especially and late 250s bridge and rubber spoilers are now getting bought as investments (like many other classic cars people are looking for cars that are about to go up), that can't be bad as it rubs off on all the cars down the line?

 

[George Elliott]

Hmmmmm, it rubs off in the form of I cant park it just anywhere any more is the biggest downside for me.

It will bring increased costs from Porsche when they spot the opportunity to charge more for parts (as happened on other models - eg a set of 964 RS door cards) - which will prompt some gullible response justifying the cost of 2ft x 3ft of hardboard and black plastic covering manufactured to wide open tolerances....[8|]

I agree the comment that our cars are being recognised at last for their many unique and wonderful qualities.

Have to agree with Olli though, all this investment, price, who is asking / getting what for various cars for sale is a bit tiresome

Lets go back to the engine builds, tuning discussions, suspension threads. []

George
944t

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

Why talk about anything then, just use the search button at the top and anything you want to ask as probably already been covered.

Ask about suspension, everyone has their own opinion , usually different so the thread goes nowhere.

Ask about who to use for a service, everyone has their own opinion, one says good, the next says bad.

Ask about oil, 30 different answers.

Ask about belts, been covered a hundred times, as have water pumps, exhausts, tyres, wheels, fog lights.

So what I'm saying is we all get sick of hearing something repetitive but tolerate it or don't read it.

Been a bit in the news recently about freedom of speech, did you notice it Olli ?

Paul

 

[simkin911]

ORIGINAL: PAUL RUDDY

Been a bit in the news recently about freedom of speech, did you notice it Olli ?

Paul

And depending on the channel you watch I guess 'willy waving' too can be found most evenings. []