nickson motorsport 944 turbo track car build
- Thread starter nicksonmsport
- Start date
nicksonmsport
New member
today saw some progress with seat mounts. used some 3mm angle and profiled the return to the shape of the floor to give a strong secure mount. The mounts allow the side mounts to be bolted directly to the floor for maximum headroom, and mounts were fabricated to give me my perfect driving postion. all mounts have captive nuts welded in place. currently tacked in place ready for welding another day.
passenger side multiple holes are for puddle welds
drivers side
passenger side
next job is to start mounting the fire extinguishers. handheld will go just in front of the drivers seat, under my legs. plumbed will go behind the passenger seat most likely.
thanks
passenger side multiple holes are for puddle welds
drivers side
passenger side
next job is to start mounting the fire extinguishers. handheld will go just in front of the drivers seat, under my legs. plumbed will go behind the passenger seat most likely.
thanks
944 man
Active member
Dont you want to mount it longitudinally? I think that Im going to fix my passenger seat to the rear and mount the bottle in front on the floor, making the passenger fit around the extinguisher, rather than make the extinguisher fit around the passenger.
Im quite tempted by newer Sparco seats and they make my new, but very out of date Ultras look dated. Theyre extremely light for an all fibreglass shell seat though...
Im quite tempted by newer Sparco seats and they make my new, but very out of date Ultras look dated. Theyre extremely light for an all fibreglass shell seat though...
nicksonmsport
New member
i looked at putting it longitudinally on the trans tunnel but its a bit in the way there and i dont like the prospect of it breaking loose in a big crash. i think under my legs is the best place as obviously i want it to be easily accessable to me in the event of a crash etc. if its on the passenger side it could be difficult to get to. plumbed extinguisher will be out the way behind the passenger seat.
nicksonmsport
New member
sorry! tbh i havnt offered it up yet, the reason i would prefer to put it behind the passenger seat is that it is then out of the way and cant be disturbed, the last thing i want is a passenger accidently setting the thing off while driving lol. plus in a crash i also prefer it to be trapped down behind the seats just in case it breaks free. i will be offering it up and seeing the best location for it so we shall see the outcome soon!
i have seen extinguishers break free from there mountings before, at least with it behind the seats there is less chance of it coming into the passenger compartment. it is unlikely, but you have to keep these things in mind as safety is obviously paramount!
i have seen extinguishers break free from there mountings before, at least with it behind the seats there is less chance of it coming into the passenger compartment. it is unlikely, but you have to keep these things in mind as safety is obviously paramount!
nicksonmsport
New member
hi patrick, i set the drivers side seat up so i was as comfortable as possible and in a perfect driving position. the seats do tilt back but thats how i feel most comfortable and they look more tilted than they really are.
once your sitting in them it feels perfect, plus there is plenty of adjustment on the side mounts if after driving i feel there is slightly to much tilt etc.
the passenger side is tilting slightly further back but its just due to the standard angle of the seat mounts being slightly different on the passenger side floor pan. i will adjust the angle of the seat on the side mounts, its just a mock up atm.
the passenger seat is set back further than the drivers side though to give as much space as possible around the occupant.
they really are very comfortable and supportive seats, sparco have always been my seat of choice, and the 2012 range is even better !
once your sitting in them it feels perfect, plus there is plenty of adjustment on the side mounts if after driving i feel there is slightly to much tilt etc.
the passenger side is tilting slightly further back but its just due to the standard angle of the seat mounts being slightly different on the passenger side floor pan. i will adjust the angle of the seat on the side mounts, its just a mock up atm.
the passenger seat is set back further than the drivers side though to give as much space as possible around the occupant.
they really are very comfortable and supportive seats, sparco have always been my seat of choice, and the 2012 range is even better !
nicksonmsport
New member
just a quick heads up as i havnt been on in a while. been very busy with customer work and so the 944 has taken a back seat for a few weeks!
im hoping to make some more progress over the next couple of weeks so with any luck i may have some updates to the thread soon
thanks
nick
im hoping to make some more progress over the next couple of weeks so with any luck i may have some updates to the thread soon
thanks
nick
nicksonmsport
New member
bit of a boring small update but its something! removed the calipers ready for refurb, they seem in good shape with all pistons returning nicely, and very minimal (but some) plate lift. good excuse to catch it early and get them looking shiney again. any recommendations for people who refurb these?
also removed the front and rear anti roll bars ready for replacements
will hopefully have more updates soon!
also removed the front and rear anti roll bars ready for replacements
will hopefully have more updates soon!
nicksonmsport
New member
on another note i found some time today to have a little play with the spare rear suspension setup i have in the workshop.
i recently spoke with a fellow porsche nut who has a lovely collection of cars including a 968 clubsport, 944 s2 with 968 engine (track car), 944 turbo (race car) and a beautiful 964 rs with 3.8 stroker/throttle bodies etc.
he has plenty of experience with these cars, and how they handle on track with different setups.
his cars started off life with the torsion bar setup, he raced them, and took them on trackdays. he then decided to try the tb delete.
all his front engined porsches are now running tb delete or are destined to have the tb's deleted as he says it has transformed the cars.
i really dont like the fiddly nature of the tb setup on the rear, and it makes for tricky suspension setup and alterations, i wanted to bin the tb's in the first place but after reading up on the net it seemed a controversial subject with many differing opinions. so i reverted back to keeping the tb's in place and re indexing.
after a chat today with someone with years of experience racing and doing trackdays in these porsches, i have pretty much concluded that my tb's will be removed!
not only will this save further weight, but it will certainly make for simple suspension setup and easily adjusted ride height.
the main reasons people seem to think the conversion could be a bad idea is due to the extra strain on the suspension mounts. well this will not be an issue as i will extend the cage directly onto the top mounts.
the other issue is people complaining of strange handling.
this will most likely be down to the fact that they have not considered that the torsion bar acts as a central support for the rear trailing arm, and stops any movement under acceleration and braking etc, which can cause geometry changes at the rear.
when the torsion bars are removed there is no longer a central support in the spring plate. this means the trailing arm is relying on the rubber bushes alone to hold it in place. these std bushes allow huge movement in the trailing arm, causing massive issues
all these bushes must be replaced with bronze/poly bushes to create a solid mount, as well as a solid bush to replace the rubber item that sits in the trailing arm mount near the centre of the axle. this bush alone pretty much stops any movement of the trailing arm from side to side, which would cause the wheel to move forward and backward in the arch under acceleration and braking.
this setup is not ideal at all for road use, but for track use is perfect and eliminates all play in the rear end. also keeping the suspension geometry static as much as possible. with the added bonus of easy ride height changes and weight saving.
the bannana bars can be chopped from the axle once this mod has been carried out. you can also cut out the centre of the axle where the torsion tubes sit, and replace with a hollow tube to further save weight, as this part of the axle is a solid casting.
so today i stripped the rear axle to see how it all fits together, and i also had a thought that you could add more strength to the rear trailing arm by retaining the torsion bars in situ, but releiving them of there spring dutys. so they were still an integral part of the rear suspension setup, and can act as a central support member, but have no part to play in suspension movement.
this could be done by machining the splines from one end of the torsion bar so it just turns, but still sits in its support.
just a thought but could be worth a try ?
like i say, some people seem to think it works, some others feel it may not. but one thing for sure is that it makes the rear suspension a whole lot simpler and easier to work on! i will give it a try, and if it doesnt work, then i can always replace the setup with the standard items. but after speaking with someone with personal experience of both setups and swearing by the non tb setup, i feel a whole lot more confident in trying it out
i recently spoke with a fellow porsche nut who has a lovely collection of cars including a 968 clubsport, 944 s2 with 968 engine (track car), 944 turbo (race car) and a beautiful 964 rs with 3.8 stroker/throttle bodies etc.
he has plenty of experience with these cars, and how they handle on track with different setups.
his cars started off life with the torsion bar setup, he raced them, and took them on trackdays. he then decided to try the tb delete.
all his front engined porsches are now running tb delete or are destined to have the tb's deleted as he says it has transformed the cars.
i really dont like the fiddly nature of the tb setup on the rear, and it makes for tricky suspension setup and alterations, i wanted to bin the tb's in the first place but after reading up on the net it seemed a controversial subject with many differing opinions. so i reverted back to keeping the tb's in place and re indexing.
after a chat today with someone with years of experience racing and doing trackdays in these porsches, i have pretty much concluded that my tb's will be removed!
not only will this save further weight, but it will certainly make for simple suspension setup and easily adjusted ride height.
the main reasons people seem to think the conversion could be a bad idea is due to the extra strain on the suspension mounts. well this will not be an issue as i will extend the cage directly onto the top mounts.
the other issue is people complaining of strange handling.
this will most likely be down to the fact that they have not considered that the torsion bar acts as a central support for the rear trailing arm, and stops any movement under acceleration and braking etc, which can cause geometry changes at the rear.
when the torsion bars are removed there is no longer a central support in the spring plate. this means the trailing arm is relying on the rubber bushes alone to hold it in place. these std bushes allow huge movement in the trailing arm, causing massive issues
all these bushes must be replaced with bronze/poly bushes to create a solid mount, as well as a solid bush to replace the rubber item that sits in the trailing arm mount near the centre of the axle. this bush alone pretty much stops any movement of the trailing arm from side to side, which would cause the wheel to move forward and backward in the arch under acceleration and braking.
this setup is not ideal at all for road use, but for track use is perfect and eliminates all play in the rear end. also keeping the suspension geometry static as much as possible. with the added bonus of easy ride height changes and weight saving.
the bannana bars can be chopped from the axle once this mod has been carried out. you can also cut out the centre of the axle where the torsion tubes sit, and replace with a hollow tube to further save weight, as this part of the axle is a solid casting.
so today i stripped the rear axle to see how it all fits together, and i also had a thought that you could add more strength to the rear trailing arm by retaining the torsion bars in situ, but releiving them of there spring dutys. so they were still an integral part of the rear suspension setup, and can act as a central support member, but have no part to play in suspension movement.
this could be done by machining the splines from one end of the torsion bar so it just turns, but still sits in its support.
just a thought but could be worth a try ?
like i say, some people seem to think it works, some others feel it may not. but one thing for sure is that it makes the rear suspension a whole lot simpler and easier to work on! i will give it a try, and if it doesnt work, then i can always replace the setup with the standard items. but after speaking with someone with personal experience of both setups and swearing by the non tb setup, i feel a whole lot more confident in trying it out
PSH
PCGB Member
Torsion delete or keep? it's a difficult subject, like you I have read into this and there's certainly two camps of thought, however as to who's right and who's wrong? that will have to be left to others as I'm no racing driver and thus can not really comment on it. One thing that has always made me wonder about the worth of doing such a mod is the weight issue. Going fast is not just about weighing less than your competitor it's also about balance, one of the main reasons for 944's out performing machines with up to twice the BHP is their handling and their handling is mainly due to the 50/50 weight distribution so I do question the validity of deleting the TB.
It will be interesting to see how you get on Nick, I watch with great interest..
Pete
It will be interesting to see how you get on Nick, I watch with great interest..
Pete
nicksonmsport
New member
well i have done a fair bit of reading, and most importantly speaking with someone who has experience of running cars with and without the torsion bars, so im pretty confident it should work fine, the main thing is that it is done correctly! i bet a lot of people who have removed the torsion bars have not replaced the torsion bar bushes with solid items, which will cause havoc!
like you say weight distribution in these cars is near on perfect, i will be removing a lot of weight from the car, from both the front and the rear of the car, along with some relocation of items, the 50/50 distribution shouldnt be to far off once finished so its not something im particularly worried about. i will be weighing the car during the project to see where weight needs to be located to achieve something reasonable, and to see how light the finished product is!
having a lighter car thats slightly off perfect balence will make for a quicker car than one carrying 100kg extra weight but is perfectly balenced. tbh in my experience having the weight slightly forward bias is easier to driver quickly when on the limit as it means oversteer is much easier to control, as you dont have a pendulum effect from the rear, and slightly less weight over the rear axle means when it does oversteer it is less likely to suddenly gain grip and fire u the opposite way when your on opposite lock. it also means more weight over the steering wheels where the grip is needed in an oversteer situation. i have always found bmws slightly twitchy on the limit with there 50/50 balence and im sure the 944 may be the same. i prefer more like a 55/45 or even a 60/40 balence. everyone has different preferences when it comes to the way a car handles though.
i much prefer a car that will oversteer rather than understeer, and i prefer progressive oversteer rather than twitchy on the limit cars than can make you overcompensate when getting into oversteer moments.
anyway we shall see how it turns out. im looking forward to getting rid of the tb setup and making things simple and effective.
like i say, if it handles in a way i dont like, i will just put a std rear end back on the car.
like you say weight distribution in these cars is near on perfect, i will be removing a lot of weight from the car, from both the front and the rear of the car, along with some relocation of items, the 50/50 distribution shouldnt be to far off once finished so its not something im particularly worried about. i will be weighing the car during the project to see where weight needs to be located to achieve something reasonable, and to see how light the finished product is!
having a lighter car thats slightly off perfect balence will make for a quicker car than one carrying 100kg extra weight but is perfectly balenced. tbh in my experience having the weight slightly forward bias is easier to driver quickly when on the limit as it means oversteer is much easier to control, as you dont have a pendulum effect from the rear, and slightly less weight over the rear axle means when it does oversteer it is less likely to suddenly gain grip and fire u the opposite way when your on opposite lock. it also means more weight over the steering wheels where the grip is needed in an oversteer situation. i have always found bmws slightly twitchy on the limit with there 50/50 balence and im sure the 944 may be the same. i prefer more like a 55/45 or even a 60/40 balence. everyone has different preferences when it comes to the way a car handles though.
i much prefer a car that will oversteer rather than understeer, and i prefer progressive oversteer rather than twitchy on the limit cars than can make you overcompensate when getting into oversteer moments.
anyway we shall see how it turns out. im looking forward to getting rid of the tb setup and making things simple and effective.
like i say, if it handles in a way i dont like, i will just put a std rear end back on the car.
PSH
PCGB Member
well I wish you good luck in your build Nick, iirc a stripped 944T with literally everything removed including the underseal will come in just under 1000kg as I was told be some of the racing drivers back in the Porsche Michelin cup days, so you can certainly make these cars very light without removing the TB. It will be interesting to see how much more weight you safe with the delete TB option.
sounds interesting
Pete
sounds interesting
Pete
nicksonmsport
New member
unforetunetly this shell will not have been dipped. its something i will definetly do at some point if i get on with the car, but its just to much work to reshell atm.
tbh the torsion delete only saves about 10-15kg so its not a huge deal, but it certainly counts. im doing it more for the simplicity of setting up the suspension and the ease of adjusting in the future. it also means the whole rear end will be good as new so i will have piece of mind everything is in tip top order.
tbh the torsion delete only saves about 10-15kg so its not a huge deal, but it certainly counts. im doing it more for the simplicity of setting up the suspension and the ease of adjusting in the future. it also means the whole rear end will be good as new so i will have piece of mind everything is in tip top order.
944 man
Active member
If you remove the torsion bars youll always be at a disadvantage, because they play a fundamental role in locating the trailing arms. If you really must remove them then Id suggest looking closely at the 937 GTS, because they came from the Skunk Works with rear coils. Longevity wasnt their primary concern though...
nicksonmsport
New member
yes your right they do, but if you change the bushes for solid items then the trailing arm no longer requires the central mount. if you just remove the torsion bars your right they will be all over the place as they are relying on soft rubber bushes to locate the trailing arm. once these are replaced the trailing arm can no longegr move about.
also i did mention it could be possible to leave the torsion bars in place to keep the central support in place, and just machine the splines from one end of the bar. this way you no longer rely on the torsion bars as springs, but they keep there support role in holding things together, but tbh i dont really think this is necessary, but if i did experience any strange handling this could be a solution?
like i say i spoke at length with a chap who has done this on ALL his 3 944/968 track and race cars as he says the difference is night and day, and he has had no problems whatsoever. he also owns a serious 964 rs and his n/a 968 engined 944 is a faster car on a circuit. mainly being down to the superb handling and lightweight. the person in question is also a very experienced race driver who knows his onions, so he knows how a car should handle, and i totally trust his knowledge on the subject as all his cars have been converted to delete the torsion bars due to the success he has had with the conversion.
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