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Has your 944 ever "Bitten" you ?

Eeek...I hate to be able to add to this thread but unfortunately I can. First time back with the car since rebuild. Something's amiss and the result wasn't nice. Fastest part of the track. Fairly deep into 6th gear. I still don't know exactly what happened but it wasn't a pleasant feeling. Data coming back suggests that the inside rear wheel is getting very light or even lifting off the ground. Had reasonably big splitter on front and only hoop spoiler on rear. Car in front (AlfaSud with mid mounted turbocharged 13b Rotary racecar) could have been dropping fluid apart from all that unburned fuel. Broken ribs and whiplash the result. Car a bit of a mess. [:(]



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprQ4YK5kNU
 

ORIGINAL: MarkK

"You drive" at Porsche Experience Silverstone it is 160 quid and classy joes all the way,the low friction surfaces are Fab.

That looks brilliant Mark - good value as well

I'm definitely up for that
 

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Eeek...I hate to be able to add to this thread but unfortunately I can. First time back with the car since rebuild. Something's amiss and the result wasn't nice. Fastest part of the track. Fairly deep into 6th gear. I still don't know exactly what happened but it wasn't a pleasant feeling. Data coming back suggests that the inside rear wheel is getting very light or even lifting off the ground. Had reasonably big splitter on front and only hoop spoiler on rear. Car in front (AlfaSud with mid mounted turbocharged 13b Rotary racecar) could have been dropping fluid apart from all that unburned fuel. Broken ribs and whiplash the result. Car a bit of a mess. [:(]



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprQ4YK5kNU

Oh no! Patrick that's a real shame - hope you are not too sore.
 
Ouch Patrick, very sorry to hear that. I watched the video and it was a bit of an impact.

Hope the ribs heal OK. What's to become of the car?


Oli.
 
Ouch indeed Patrick, just seemed to go a bit light at first but that last snap was a bit brutal. If I can make one comment its that in the preceding laps your cars sounds too stiff. Its unloading the rear sometimes, you can hear it starting to spin up over bumps/crests. Its the rear rebound that seems to be a real tricky balancing act, I had mine too stiff last year and it was causing the back end to whip out from under me on bumpy corners. Thing is I backed it off to a level I calculated but my bro tells me that following the car along the road the back end was flapping up and down. Its now set somewhere in-between for Brands but the difference between too stiff and too loose is maybe only 25 to 30% damper force.
 

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Eeek...I hate to be able to add to this thread but unfortunately I can. First time back with the car since rebuild. Something's amiss and the result wasn't nice. Fastest part of the track. Fairly deep into 6th gear. I still don't know exactly what happened but it wasn't a pleasant feeling. Data coming back suggests that the inside rear wheel is getting very light or even lifting off the ground. Had reasonably big splitter on front and only hoop spoiler on rear. Car in front (AlfaSud with mid mounted turbocharged 13b Rotary racecar) could have been dropping fluid apart from all that unburned fuel. Broken ribs and whiplash the result. Car a bit of a mess. [:(]



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprQ4YK5kNU


Bitten, that was more like half eaten !

Was the car salvageable ?
 
At this stage I 'think' the car is repairable. I've only seen it on the hoist the same afternoon of the crash. Wasn't in the most clear headed frame of mind and we won't be back onto it for a few weeks. Need to pull off all the left hand panels and look at the chassis / cage etc...
Ribs are cracked and sore. Very inhibiting to do most things.

I think it is due to a few different things but have not settled on a cause yet. Suspension isn't right, agreed. Still have to go over the car closely. Perhaps there was a mechanical malfunction that we'll find. Nonetheless, pretty depressing after spending so much time etc getting it to this point.
I think Rock collecting is starting to seem an easier pursuit!
 
I'm doing that one on May 11. Looking forward to it...
ORIGINAL: MarkK

"You drive" at Porsche Experience Silverstone it is 160 quid and classy joes all the way,the low friction surfaces are Fab.
 
With the amount of crap comming out of the alfa in front I'm not surprised it got away from you so quickly.I hope your ribs etc are starting to feel better and as soon as you are well enough I'm sure you will rebuild her.
 

ORIGINAL: edh


ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Eeek...I hate to be able to add to this thread but unfortunately I can. First time back with the car since rebuild. Something's amiss and the result wasn't nice. Fastest part of the track. Fairly deep into 6th gear. I still don't know exactly what happened but it wasn't a pleasant feeling. Data coming back suggests that the inside rear wheel is getting very light or even lifting off the ground. Had reasonably big splitter on front and only hoop spoiler on rear. Car in front (AlfaSud with mid mounted turbocharged 13b Rotary racecar) could have been dropping fluid apart from all that unburned fuel. Broken ribs and whiplash the result. Car a bit of a mess. [:(]



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprQ4YK5kNU

Oh no! Patrick that's a real shame - hope you are not too sore.

Im going to go the other way Pat, and say that I know that youre sore, but I hope that your car isnt too bad. Youll heal all on your own, but I realise that a massive amount of time, effort and money has gone into your car! [;)]
 

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

At this stage I 'think' the car is repairable. I've only seen it on the hoist the same afternoon of the crash. Wasn't in the most clear headed frame of mind and we won't be back onto it for a few weeks. Need to pull off all the left hand panels and look at the chassis / cage etc...
Ribs are cracked and sore. Very inhibiting to do most things.

I think it is due to a few different things but have not settled on a cause yet. Suspension isn't right, agreed. Still have to go over the car closely. Perhaps there was a mechanical malfunction that we'll find. Nonetheless, pretty depressing after spending so much time etc getting it to this point.
I think Rock collecting is starting to seem an easier pursuit!


My sympathies, must be gutting, but on the up side, when you do pull the car apart you will have a load of rocks and stones to remove with which you can start your collection !
 
Having watched the clip now, I recognise the circuit/corner, which is a common place for an off, I believe? The last clip I saw involved an E36 3 series which impacted hard on the inside barrier a little further on, destroying the car and leaving the camera somewhere in the scenery recording until a marshal found it.
 

ORIGINAL: 944 man
I'm going to go the other way Pat, and say that I know that youre sore, but I hope that your car isnt too bad. Youll heal all on your own, but I realise that a massive amount of time, effort and money has gone into your car! [;)]
Difficult one isn't it? People self-heal, cars don't. But people aren't as easy to replace as cars, should either be beyond repair ...


Oli.
 
Pat,

That must have been a long few seconds, waiting for the bang, and knowing there was nothing you could do to prevent it.
Glad you are mending, and I hope the car will be ok too.

What looks odd to me is what appears to be a sudden onset of understeer before the back went. Don't suppose you had a puncture by any chance?
 

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Having watched the clip now, I recognise the circuit/corner, which is a common place for an off, I believe? The last clip I saw involved an E36 3 series which impacted hard on the inside barrier a little further on, destroying the car and leaving the camera somewhere in the scenery recording until a marshal found it.
Well spotted Sir! Give that man a Gold Star. Indeed this is exactly what was running through my mind as it started to get light and I started to lose traction. I realised that I was in for some trouble and all I could think of was not to let it snap back inside like that BMW. People have said I've over corrected and indeed perhaps I did, but there was an underlying reason for this which you've ably pointed out. What I'd like to know and didn't have in my arsenal, was should I have tried to rotate the car to curb a lot more off the speed? My trepidation is based on not knowing how much that would have risked flipping the car. So indeed I just rode it out knowing it wasn't going to be pleasant. Subsequent data pulled out of the car from the engineer suggests we might have had some suspension setup issues:

"Hi Patrick
I've been analysing some of the data in more detail and what I have discovered is the following.
We have been using 45mm of rear damper travel at the track. This probably equates to around 70mm of wheel travel.
Unfortunately the car needs to have more droop travel through some of the higher G force turns. The inside rear wheel is lifting off the ground, this is the jacking effect that Paul was talking about, at the time we thought it was being caused by too much rebound damping and we removed some.
Factory setup have the droop controlled by the bolts retaining the outer torsion bar bush, your application probably has the rear droop controlled by a spacer above the piston within the damper so some damper or rear suspension setup mods will be required before the next outing.
If you look at the data particularly suspension position [position each corner in a new graph on the page] you will see that the lr suspension pots flat lines during some corners at around -22.
At this time the rear wheel is starting to lift of the ground and the rear will start to become unstable.
Your video also confirms this as you have to correct your line on entry , you were travelling 16 klms quicker than the previous lap and the gpsmap shows you wider on entry before the apex which all added to the event.
The rear end appears to be rolling more that the front but a more accurate measurement of motion ratios would be required before you could call this a fact.
Everywhere that the lr suspension starts to bounce off the full droop point is where you were complaining about a lack of rear grip so we need to rectify this before next outing.
If there are no spacers within the damper then we may need to get extended rose joints, Im a bit surprised that this has occured given that you bought the dampers to suit this application.
Mark
Rsport Race Engineering"
 
Patrick,

That eMail reads as if he has full data from the car of suspension position with respect to time, as well as some pretty detailed telemetry regarding speed and GPS. What did you have running in the car at the time?


Oli.
 

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Eeek...I hate to be able to add to this thread but unfortunately I can. First time back with the car since rebuild. Something's amiss and the result wasn't nice. Fastest part of the track. Fairly deep into 6th gear. I still don't know exactly what happened but it wasn't a pleasant feeling. Data coming back suggests that the inside rear wheel is getting very light or even lifting off the ground. Had reasonably big splitter on front and only hoop spoiler on rear. Car in front (AlfaSud with mid mounted turbocharged 13b Rotary racecar) could have been dropping fluid apart from all that unburned fuel. Broken ribs and whiplash the result. Car a bit of a mess. [:(]



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprQ4YK5kNU

Gutted for you after all that work, wishing you a speedy recovery, and hope the car is repairable.
Tony
 
It's great to know these things but obviously would be much nicer for Patrick if it wasn't related to a heavy crash.

Something which stunned me yesterday was that EMC told me that on my car the rear helper springs were not fully bound and compressing the main spring when the car is sat flat. Honestly didn't notice it but of course it meant that as I was going through corners the inside wheel was only running on the torsion bar and a 4/lb inch flat wound helper. It literally only needed mm's of movement to lift off the main spring but of course looked sort OK as sat flat the main spring was under load. Also helps explain why it seemed like I had way too much rebound as of course its the spring+torsion bar that pushes the damper out. Also of course meant every time I braked heavily the same was happening, back end lifts and with only the torsion bars to pull the damper back out its like running with twice as much rebound. No wonder I kept smoking rears.

Patrick make sure the above is not happening on your car as I find it hard to believe that you have so little droop its lifting the rear inside wheel in a corner. On my car with the GAZs the rear droop is enormous, must be several inches.

If anyone suggests you can put coilovers on these cars again without reindexing, walk don't run, it's plain right dangerous thinking.

Next problem after having enough damper travel is having correct bump stops that come in before the springs bind up or the dampers bottom out which is not easy on these cars as unfortunately you don't get a lot of movement upwards on the rear once the car is sat with a nice low track spec ride height.
 

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