Has your 944 ever "Bitten" you ?

[944Turbo]

That's a real shame Neil, hope it all gets back together soon,
Tony

 

[5lab]

a couple of nibbles last weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxg2whz9mL8

and how to do it properly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxO84tJl04

 

[Hairyarse]

Well done on missing the barriers! [] You appear to be driving very smoothly so it must have been very slippy out there?

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Niel - doesn't look as bad as that 968 EMC sorted a while ago. Anyway glad you're ok, see you soon.

 

[Neil Haughey]

Seems that crashing is part of racing at all levels, EMC have fixed a lot of crashed cars over the years so I have my fingers crossed that the car will be better than ever. Also using it as an opportunity to change a few other things on the car such as the rear trailing arm that appeared to be bent (its alloy so how could this happen?), change to softer standard torsion bars etc. etc.

5lab the ring looked amazingly wet in your vid, always a concern with that much water that you could end up aquaplaning at speed, something which is a nightmare for track drivers.

 

[944 man]

When I was talking to KE, I pointed out that a dipped shell bereft of seam sealer would corrode aya in no time - his reply: its a race car, itll be crashed and knackered by then.

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: 5lab

a couple of nibbles last weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxO84tJl04

What speed were you doing around Brunchen?

 

[5lab]

I only did 4 laps last weekend as it was pissing down the whole time. was fun but majorly slippery. theres a vid here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTdPms-86c of the v8 vantage ring taxi struggling to stay ahead of someone in a megane, should give you an idea how tricky it was with rwd

I think into brunchen I'm about mid-way through third, so 60ish? it really wan't a day for going fast. Our ring taxi lap to over 11 mins!

On the last lap there was tonnes of standing water in parts, and given I'd aquaplaned off a dual carrigeway in similar conditions (see page 4) I was taking it very easy in the fast bits - probably never really going above 70. That lap was over a minute down on my 'moist' lap to give an idea of how slow I was. that said, the ring taxi didn't have a problem hitting 140 in the damp, so maybe i'm just a woose

 

[Cater_Racer]

It's hardly worth going on there when it's that wet, more slippery than the autobahn.

Fortuitousness it was dry when I took my 998cc Mini on but here's the vid for laughs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGkiiAZcZhw

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: 5lab

I only did 4 laps last weekend as it was pissing down the whole time. was fun but majorly slippery. theres a vid here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTdPms-86c of the v8 vantage ring taxi struggling to stay ahead of someone in a megane, should give you an idea how tricky it was with rwd

I think into brunchen I'm about mid-way through third, so 60ish? it really wan't a day for going fast. Our ring taxi lap to over 11 mins!

On the last lap there was tonnes of standing water in parts, and given I'd aquaplaned off a dual carrigeway in similar conditions (see page 4) I was taking it very easy in the fast bits - probably never really going above 70. That lap was over a minute down on my 'moist' lap to give an idea of how slow I was. that said, the ring taxi didn't have a problem hitting 140 in the damp, so maybe i'm just a woose

Well done at brunnchen I think you used up a good slice of your luck that weekend, staying out of the barriers..

If you watch the Aston, he's driving the wet line & staying well out of most of the apexes - I suspect that your "moments" came where the dry line was very slippery. Dale Lomas did a vid a few months ago in his RX-8 showing the wet lines & the massive difference in grip on the dry line (and the way the car reacted as you crossed the dry line)

Driving the 'ring without a helmet - I wouldn't...

 

[944 man]

Yes, although you both need one. I think that one person of two wearing a helmet is even more dangerous in the event of an off.

The accepted wisdom is that the wet line around the Nordschleife, is anywhere that isnt the racing line!

 

[edh]

.. absolutely

then there's the awkward topic of insurance of course

 

[333pg333]

Arrggghhh....sorry to see that Neil!! Ouch! Looks like the front end is a bit messed up too but perhaps all those panels are reusable? What tyres were you running? Seems pretty damp, enough to use wets?

Nick, I hear you re not using parts again like Seat, harness...but I hadn't thought about the cage. My only question is that in my case I hit a tyre wall which absorbed a lot of the impact in addition to the outside panels crumpling in. I know cages can be pretty cheap in various parts of the world. I even contemplated buying one of those kit cages out of the UK at one time...but a custom cage down here is expensive. $5k+ In your opinion is there any way of testing the cage to determine the risks of re-using? What are you going to do Neil?

 

[5lab]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Yes, although you both need one. I think that one person of two wearing a helmet is even more dangerous in the event of an off.

The accepted wisdom is that the wet line around the Nordschleife, is anywhere that isnt the racing line!

its hard to stay off the racing line though, it becomes instinct. I think the real difference is on a few corners, if you watch the ring taxi and megane they took a very wide line round a couple of corners, but normal round most of the others...

regarding helmets, I think it depends how hard you're going to drive. I drive the ring like a fast, one-way b-road, where you know nothing will jump out at you. Sure I reached the limits of grip a couple of times, but not much really. Whilst a swift time would make me feel good, I'm not out to shave another 10 seconds off.

If I'm on a track, I'm going to be pushing grip limits as much as possible, to push times down. Whilst the margins for error (ie length of grass) are higher, the chances of getting there are also higher, so a helmet becomes more essential. I wouldn't fit in my 944 with one on anyway, so I guess the point is moot

 

[Neil Haughey]

Patrick the tyres are Michelin cups, uber expensive and uber rubbish in the wet. Everything bad ppl had said to me about them is 100% true. They do grip like hell when warmed up in the dry and handle very nicely but they are very sensitive, I had to put 2 new rears on at lunchtime on Friday. The left rear had a small flat spot but this was causing the right rear to work over time, spin up and melt off its middle band. In hindsight I much prefer the Dunlops, 2/3rds the price, very consistent, very good in the wet, very wide grip characteristics in that you can go over the edge with them for little penalty and very long lasting. Unfortunately we don't have any choice as its the regs to use Michelin so we end up on probably the worst and yet at the same time most expensive list 1B tyre. I doubt anyone would be using them if we had a choice.

 

[nicksonmsport]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

Arrggghhh....sorry to see that Neil!! Ouch! Looks like the front end is a bit messed up too but perhaps all those panels are reusable? What tyres were you running? Seems pretty damp, enough to use wets?

Nick, I hear you re not using parts again like Seat, harness...but I hadn't thought about the cage. My only question is that in my case I hit a tyre wall which absorbed a lot of the impact in addition to the outside panels crumpling in. I know cages can be pretty cheap in various parts of the world. I even contemplated buying one of those kit cages out of the UK at one time...but a custom cage down here is expensive. $5k+ In your opinion is there any way of testing the cage to determine the risks of re-using? What are you going to do Neil?

tbh its very hard to test the cage, its a case of piece of mind, if i had a hard impact in any caged car, i myself would replace it to be sure it was good as new. the cage is like any other part for the body, in that it is designed to absorb and distribute the loads from an impact. tubes can flex and return to the original postion and you wouldnt know! the only way you may see any sign of the tube moving is to inspect the paint and check for any ripples or cracks etc. yes a tyre wall and surrounding panels will absorb the majority of the impact, but that was a large impact, and it was side on with the car stopping abruptly. also check any of the mount points on the sills in case the sills have moved in at all and brought the cage in with it.
at the end of the day a cage is a critical safety item in a race car, and to reuse a cage that has been in a heavy impact is a large risk.

 

[Neil Haughey]

From the crashed 944s and 968s I have seen its the side on impacts that seem much more problematic as it bends the cage and floor in, in a way that is very difficult to get straight again. Luckily in mine everything from the boot floor forward is untouched and the boot floor itself looks perfectly straight. Same at the other end where the front bumper took the impact. Patricks impact looked much heavier to me but a lot of that might be because mine didn't feel that bad and watching someone else is always a bit whince inducing. Its strange actually I wanted to drive my car back round as even the tracking is dead on straight but you know what its like once out of the car your'e off to the medical centre, I was tempted to keep on up the grass and nip into the pit lane but thought better of it.

In hindsight I think I was very unlucky to hit the end of one section of armco to be spun round the break into the next section, I reckon if I hit later or earlier the very shallow angle would have left much less damage. Further than that its pretty gutting that so many ppl went off that weekend yet managed to not hit anything, I have one off and end up with a smashed in car.

 

[nicksonmsport]

neil your right, your car isnt so much of an issue, as the front and rear of the car took the impact, and the cage would have been almost untouched. in the other car it was a hard slam side on, and the main passenger compartment and cage took all of the impact. this is the sort of impact where the cage may need looking at. or obviously if the car was rolled!

 

[333pg333]

Hmm, this is not thrilling news. I'll have to wait until the panels are stripped off and we can get a good look at everything. Don't think I can go through another full build if that's is going to be the result.
Somehow 18 months off the road and crashing (potentially?) first time back requiring a full rebuild in another tub seems not to be very cost effective. []

Neil, that seems ridiculous to be forced into using MPSCs as the tyre of choice...ESPECIALLY in the U.K. Mind boggling stuff!

 

[Neil Haughey]

It wouldn't be so bad if they updated the design but the cups we run on are by now a generation old design. They have 2 issues that grate amongst the many issues with them; 1) They seriously lack consistency of performance through life, when new they are reportedly about 1 sec a lap faster then within maybe 1 15min quali and a 25min race they drop off by a second into their stable phase. The problem there is if one is competing at the front you end up going through a set every weekend, hence why I got a set from Mark Sumpter last year that had little use on them. 2) They are next to useless in the wet, even in the dry it takes a long time to get heat into them but of course in the wet this becomes next to impossible. To put it into context when I drove at Brands in one of their Pug RCZ road cars I went probably 10sec a lap faster than I was going in those quali laps, both in similar conditions. The road car was a joy in the wet, my race car like driving on ice.

The main reason why we have Michelin is because of the relationship between them and Porsche, the championship here whilst not on TV is an MSA sanctioned championship so it has a profile way up above us with the wider company etc. Personally I think Michelin make the best road car tyres available and I don't have a problem with them being expensive, I do have a problem with the characteristics of the cups though being the exact opposite of what a club racer wants and a prehistoric design.