Cayman 718 GPF Failure

[Oldbiddy]

Morning Paul,

It's a good thought, we just need our GPF car owners to engage with us and help us determine how well these cars are managing to control their particulate emission systems.

Recent data from a 2020 718 Cayman circa 19K miles. 100% OPC service history. Soot OK, but ash level look dodgy.

K211 – Particulate filter bank 1, soot load calculated = 0.39%
K221 – Particulate filter bank 1, soot load measured = 0.00%
K230 – Particulate filter, oil/ash load calculated = 0.00%
K231 – Particulate filter bank 1 – oil/ash measured = 61.57%

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Oldbiddy

Without prejudice

Yes that oil ash reading is far to high for the mileage covered, but remember its not real.

And the usual very low soot value data, and I suppose the differential pressure sensor reading will be very low also.

It's a software glitch, the oil ash measured value as been programed to come on to soon.

It's that software ticking clock again moving into a new model year.

It doesn't need a modified exhaust because it should already have one on.

Post December 2019 cars had this modified filter fitted because of this problem.

Clearly as we know, in all our cases that have had a new modified filter fitted, the oil ash issue is not fixed.

Have you contacted Porsche to raise a case on the grounds that this is a known manufacturing defect and they need to fix the car.

If you need any assistance please contact us directly on 07769 590119, we are collecting data on these faulty cars.

Regards
Dave

 

[JohnCRS]

Hi Dave

I look at the K221 and K230 zero readings on OldBiddy's post above and I read about the zero readings in D18PHN's post and wonder if some of these engineers are not understanding the reporst.

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi John,

Without prejudice

Following our discussion this evening, I would like share the answer to your question regarding the readings on your previous post.

First of all, we very rarely see any figures except 0.00% in the K221 measured value, and K211 calculated value, when the Oil Ash measured value is at 100%.

We always see a 0.00% reading in the K230 Oil Ash calculated value.

This is all wrong, my understanding is the measured value can go up and down, and the calculated value is the ECU calculation of an average value over a certain time period.

This is has been our opinion for the last 2 years, and it doesn't make any sense at all.

Clearly the software is suspect, and needs looking at A.S.A.P.

Enclose this info below sent out by Porsche in 2018, prior to the release of our new 2019 GPF fitted cars.

The first batch of new GPF cars were 911 and 718.

It's funny that we have had recently two 2019 991.2 with GPFs fitted, with the same 718 issues we are having.

And on the first car, that had a new GPF fitted under warranty, we managed to see the GPF data, and that did not make any sense at all, I have a copy.

​

Porsche is making a model range fit for the coming emission standards​

01/06/2018
Porsche continues to sell new vehicles in Europe as usual. The Stuttgart-based sports car manufacturer explicitly refutes a report to the contrary by the online edition of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

• 
  

It is true that, currently, it is only possible to order through a Porsche dealership, rather than online. The transition to vehicles being fitted with a gasoline particulate filter (GPF) has resulted in limited configuration options. There is also very high demand.

From September 1, 2018, the Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP) measurement cycles apply to all new cars in Europe and a new emission standard is also coming into force. Porsche is therefore making its model range fit for the coming emission standards. The introduction of new emissions legislation makes it necessary to transition the model range to use a gasoline particulate filter (GPF) and obtain new type approvals no later than September 1, 2018. As a result, a temporary restriction to the model range is in force. Despite this, in terms of ordering new models – even during the transition period – both prospective and current customers can make use of Porsche Centres.

As part of the transition, there will be a phased introduction of the model derivatives. Starting in September, selected models from the 911 and 718 model lines will be available with a gasoline particulate filter. The 911 4 GTS with all-wheel drive and PDK will also be available in three body shapes from the outset – as a Coupé, Cabriolet and Targa. Alongside the 911 4 GTS derivatives, the new technology for gasoline particulate filters (GPF) will be implemented into the 718 basic and GTS models and then into other model lines.

Porsche is prioritising the transition of model ranges to ensure that the most attractive possible product range remains available to customers. For two-door sports cars – where in some cases the proportion of vehicles featuring automatic gearboxes is over 90 percent – these versions will be introduced to the market particularly quickly.

For all new model launches that fall within the transition phase, all of the initial model variations available with a petrol engine will be fitted with a gasoline particulate filter from the outset. The market introduction of individual derivatives will take place step-by-step, as with a new launch.
Consumption data taking individual vehicle equipment into account

There are a number of challenges which have contributed to the delay: In accordance with the new legislation, vehicle manufacturers will in future have to specify individual consumption data, taking into account the individual vehicle equipment. Calculating this consumption data requires a wide variety of measurements.

“The EU deadlines for WLTP certification, which were brought forward at short notice by a year, are putting us under immense pressure. Our preparations have already been in full swing for more than a year, and we are making good progress”, says CEO Oliver Blume. “Due to a considerable shortage in the availability of test benches, which is affecting all manufacturers, this is currently a huge challenge. We need to prioritize. Nevertheless, we are in favour of more realistic emissions determination.”

Sorry if you have seen this before, but you can draw your own conclusions to what may have happened.

Regards
Dave

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without prejudice

Enclose a copy of a post I have just put on the Panamera Forum, regarding a petrol particulate filter failure.

Martin mentioned Richards Porsche Post article on our GPF problem.

So this is my reply to Martin.

Yes a well written assessment of how these GPF filters should work, and also the challenges Martin Werner and his team faced in designing emission systems on these cars.

Richard wrote on the first page of his article that the exact nature of the failure is yet to be pinned down, after almost two years.

And on the last page of the article he wrote, what we need is answers about why this is happening.

Fortunately after almost two years of research, collecting data, engaging with owners, and reversing Porsches decision to charge our owners for replacing their GPF, we can confirm the issue is software 100%.

What we need now is Porsche to confirm we are right, and confirm we have the answer at last.

Hopefully it will be soon

Regards
David

 

[Scrounger]

In honesty David, I don't think they will however I hope they do and, as in my previous post, compensate those that have been affected and offer a recall to cars that may have this issue to update the software.

The only other way is to send it out to the wider audience.

Dan

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Dan,

Without prejudice

Thanks for your post, we will get to the end of this, and make sure that anybody that paid for a GPF, will get compensated.

Afterall all this fuss about wrong engine oil, driving style, and an exhaust that didn't need replacing, can not be forgotten about.

Regards
Dave

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without Prejudice

Well another Cayman GPF owner contacted me today with another supposedly blocked particulate filter.

Off we go again, requesting page 42 of the Val report, to see and confirm the unbelievable reading data, that's proven time after time to be inaccurately pointing towards a GPF filter fault.

First of all the only way the dealers can re set the oil ash % level, is to carry out a regeneration, this sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't, usually this also includes lots of road testing mileage carried out, to no avail.

What usually happens is the oil ash % level comes back, sometimes as high as 50% , after a very short time, usually within 1,000 miles.
Sometimes even on a road test after a new modified filter has been fitted.

Remember the internal Porsche document that came out last month saying if the regeneration didn't work, then they would have to fit a new modified GPF filter, which has been available from December 2019.

Now the problem is, that when a new modified filter is fitted, they still have to carry out a regeneration to re set the % value.

We all know now that a regeneration on a petrol GPF filter takes care of the soot, and each time this happens it makes a very small amount of ASH in the process.

My question is, when the dealer and Porsche Technical see the ASH figure have gone from 100% to 0.00%, the one question they should be asking is where has the ASH gone, if it was actually there in the first place.

Ash, if its present in a filter cannot be removed by a regeneration, after all its ASH and its a solid.

I said on my last post that we should treat the GPF filter system as a service item and its function should be checked when ever the car goes in for a service or any repair work.

After all its an important Emission device that needs monitoring before the ASH gets to 100%, puts on the engine light, and message on the dashboard.

You would also expect a blocked GPF filter not to be taking care of exhaust emissions efficiently and that's really important for all of us.

And the fact we have never seen, a soot regeneration warning message on these 718 cars, and also the last two 991.2 2019 vehicles we have dealt with, enforces the need to carry out this check.

On Friday, hopefully I will be looking at the software on one of our faulty cars, to see specifically how its been programmed.

Will keep you updated

Regards
Dave

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Sorry Guys & Girls

Forgot to mention, we now have 49K views on this GPF subject with the Porsche Club
Dave

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi it's me again

Without prejudice

Just had a call from another Cayman 718 owner that had the oil ash % reading re set to zero by the dealer 800 miles ago.

Its now unfortunately at 86%, thats only 14% to go, then the light will come back on.

Another example of our ongoing software issue.

Kind Regards
 Dave

 

[Paul-718gts]

Another thing to note Dave is on all forced regens carried out by the OPC they are supposed to also change the oil and the oil filter as part of their standard practice.. I guess this is either because the process cooks the engine or a way of increasing service margins££.
I guess neither are good for the owner.

And more importantly based on the facts and evidence we have not necessary.

 

[Paul-718gts]

As Dave would say,

Without Prejudice…..

Well, as a very quick up date my car has been with the OPC for 14 weeks next Tuesday, 3rd GPF fitted after under 14,000 miles car from new.This time a new GPF and not a warranty refurb was fitted and it showed over 50% full after 20 mile road test drive.
As far as I am aware the car has had more mechanical tests completed over the last 14 weeks than a space shuttle prior to launching and the Brand still can’t find the root cause.
Yet again I have mentioned the software as a possible root cause but for whatever reason the brand appear to be steering around this potential root cause.. I guess the ultimate question is why.. ?

I can only assume any potential software updates needed on anything related to emissions needs to be reported to the appropriate authorities. I am sure we can all remember the recent VW diesel gate saga where it all went wrong.

From reading a lot of posts on the 718 forum a lot of owners appeared to have overcome this issue by replacing the CAT with a aftermarket part and tuning the car by adjusting the software to overcome any challenges… and in some instances gain more power..

I guess that’s fine if your car isn’t under warranty as long as you still pass the MOT emissions test.

As far as I am aware the club hasn’t been able to get a response from the Brand and there have been no follow ups to last months PP article as promised..

I guess everyone is hoping this issue is going to go away.. well it’s not as I believe we are up to 44,000 views.

Dave keep up the good work I am sure we are close to opening Pandora’s box

Well as a short update my car is still at the dealership, I can’t remember if it’s been 16 or 17 weeks next Tuesday, I have kind of lost count.
4 different Gold technicians with over 100 years of experience between them and we are still no further forward.
As far as I am aware they are awaiting a response from Stuttgart as they have tried everything the experts ??? at Reading have suggested.
Hopefully for all of us affected this might mean that someone in Germany is burning the midnight candles writing a new programme or algorithm to resolve this once and for all.

We can only pray and wait in anticipation……

 

[911hillclimber]

You must be very irritated by all this, 16 weeks and counting.
Is your car the first in the UK to get a tech referral to Germany?
Can't help thinking this is a positive move and shows Porsche UK are at least trying.

 

[Paul-718gts]

Only time will tell, but to be honest I don’t hold out much hope with the guys in Germany….
I guess eventually if there is no response in 2 weeks , we will have no choice and will be forced to go public..

 

[Scrounger]

I'd do it now Paul. 17 weeks and Porsche are unable to find a fix is unacceptable. I bet they get one within 4 weeks once it goes to press.

Dan

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without prejudice

I was out yesterday afternoon at a local Porsche gathering and unfortunately had another 718 owner with a supposedly blocked filter and the dealer demanding 9K to fix the car contact me.

Thankfully the owner checked out our forum and made contact.

I asked him to contact the dealer and get them to send him a copy of page 42, the GPF readings.

And sure enough they refused to send it to him, so I advised him to go back to the dealership to get sight of the report, which he did.

He couldn't take a photo but was allowed to write down the settings.

Which he sent me, the usual nonsense as always, so I sent him some information to send to the dealer to move things along.

How long is this going to go on, the dealers have been sent the information on how to deal with the DTC P242F, oil ash % to high on the 3rd March.

This information tells them what to do and confirms that modified GPF filters were fitted post December 2019 on our cars.

So why is this dealer asking the owner to pay for this GPF, have they not read the letter.

Since we started our campaign to challenge the dealers and Porsche on what is clearly a miss-diagnosis on this fault regarding the filter, we have never mentioned the dealers involved.

I suggest from now on we name the dealer involved, if they carry on trying to charge our owners for filters they do not need.

If all the dealers had carried out a basic exhaust back pressure check and confirmed no pressure in the exhaust, just has the differential pressure sensor reading always show on page 42.

And had sent this information to the Technical Department to monitor and discuss, this could have saved Porsche fitting these very expensive exhaust parts, not upsetting our owners, and they could have focused their attention on the software.

Which is where we are now, if you agree we should highlight which dealer is involved, please reply back on the forum.

I will keep you informed on our progress with this dealer.

Regards
Dave

 

[Motorhead]

Hi Dave,

Whilst I agree that highlighting the dealers who are diagnosing the fault incorrectly would be a good idea I fear that “naming and shaming” is against the forum rules, so best to check them before proceeding.

Jeff

 

[Wrightrubber]

Hi Dave

Without Prejudice

You are right, how long is this going to go on, dealers asking customers for £9K when they have had the letter on the 3rd March informing them how to deal with this situation. The fact that they are still insisting owners pay for GPFs that are not full and replacing them doesn't solve the problem, as Paul can testify, is either sheer incompetence or profiteering, either way Porsche and the dealerships ought to be ashamed, but i'm afraid it's profits before customers!!!!

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Thanks Jeff, Mark.

Without prejudice

I will speak to John Dickinson, see if we can proceed.
But wrong diagnosis needs challenging, and this is clearly the case, as all the cars with the modified filters fitted are coming back.

Thanks Mark for your support, you highlited this issue 2 years ago and they are still trying to charge our owners.

If they carry on they will destroy the 2019 718 cars reputations going forward, and they cannot be allowed to do this.
Regards
Dave

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Morning Guys & Girls

Some good news for a change

WE HAVE JUST REACHED 50K VIEWS ON OUR 718 GPF CAMPAIGN

I would like to personally thank every body that's followed us on this journey to try and resolve this issue on these cars.

It just shows that if we push on and not except that having to replace a very Expensive Emission Device on our cars is acceptable, then we need to keep going.

Thanks again

Dave