Where do we go from here?

[ukmastiff]

I genuinely missed the dodgy posts/row whatever they were , sorry for that. However as for the forum , I agree with Hairy and Nutter in almost all that they say.

All I would add is that we live in the real world, people get miffed off with people and people can be lazy typists ( like me) or can use text speak ( which I don't really like)
but it doesn't make them bad people. I don't think it's good to start ordering people to type a certain way or not use abbreviations , just ignore their posts if you like.

Hiding behind a forum to be gobby and offensive though is pathetic but the web is full of it as such folk who tend to love insulting or winding people up at a distance. Personally I use the web to help others / find help or socialise and even make the occasional friend. I have made one or two friends on another car community who I have a lot of time for.
They are decent helpful people and I would go out of my way to help them as I would most folk if it was needed.I try to remember that we don't 'really' know each other and that person you don't particularly feel drawn to ( being polite) could in fact be a really decent person who does a lot of good in his 'real life'.

Re how I find this forum, I have always thought it just skims under the 'over moderation' mark for me and does so quite well. If you kill freedoms completely you will be shocked how quickly folk drift away , just as I quickly leave any forum where folk get nasty. The MG rover forum totally shocked me when I joined it with some of the nasty vicious
individuals posting on there and I swiftly found the far friendlier Rover 75/ZT forum where I still hang out today. It's not perfect as it's run purely as a money making business but the people can be very good folk. I didn't get shouty when someone was foul to me on here a year or 2 ago, all I did was walk away and not post for about 6 months and just enjoyed my time elsewhere as I thought that was the adult thing to do.

As for stopping or severely restricting guests, yes do it if you want but it would be like banning all immigrants, many of them come with a lot to offer and I think much the same can be said of 'guests'. In the main personally I think it is a good forum and I wouldn't change much at all.

regards

Mas

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

ORIGINAL: 944 man
the shocking way that Promax were allowed to slander him here, that his interest would be extremely cool
before

I think its a bit unfair to bring Promax as a company into this issue, the 'Promax' I use are a different bunch of people to the person you refer to. Andy Everett and the guys at Promax in MK have never said a bad word about anybody as far as I know.


Edd

Are you sure Edd? Someone did mention this before (it may have been you), and I spent a few minutes looking, but it appears that it was after the MK operation started. I may be wrong of course, and if I am then I wont mention it again, but I dont think that I am.

On a more positive note, the traders whose input I would be interested to see:

Promax
Jon Mitchell
Tom Barker - Augment Automotive
Hartech - Barry Hart particularly
Not strictly traders: Alasdair and Olli Snellman

 

[zcacogp]

Chaps,

I'm surprised by this thread; I thought this was a great forum and one of the (many) good aspects of owning a 944. It has saved me a lot of money in running a 944 (and also cost me a lot of time in both reading and writing posts!) This thread seems to be unnecessary navel-gazing to try and improve on something that is already excellent.

OK, the traders thing needs a bit of thought, but not much. Can't traders be allowed simply a link to their website in their signature and nothing more? That way people would know they were a trader and they would have a modicum of advertising. Deliberate promotion of their products or services in their posts would be verboten, unless prices were specifically asked for.

I haven't seen any great increase of text-speak, profanity or otherwise (although I note I am still not allowed to refer to shag-pile carpet!) I'd suggest that the current tone of the forum is probably off-putting to the younger generation (although I think I am one of the youngest here) and hence the problem will be self-limiting as long as it is both observed and policed.

To prohibit non-members from posting here would kill the forum stone dead. No doubt about it. I think the current policy of forcing people to register before they can see anything is a sensible one (I'm sure it deters a lot of people from signing up as they aren't quite sure what they are signing up too, therefore they need to be interested in 944's to persevere.)

For what it's worth, there are two things I find very annoying about the forum; firstly the fact that you need to wait about three months between posts and secondly that there is no mobile version of the forum (as there is for Pistonheads.) Changing these two things are about the only areas for improvement that I can see.


Oli.

P.S. The Promax thing was historic, and I think I joined in the middle of it (about six years ago.) I didn't fully understand what was going on, and am glad to say that a veil seems to have been drawn over it. Let's not lift that veil, eh?

 

[GlennS]

ORIGINAL: ukmastiff

I genuinely missed the dodgy posts/row whatever they were , sorry for that.

So did I and frankly, I've spent enough time participating on and moderating internet forums not to care. On-line arguments are inevitable as are the occasional "flounce off" from one of the parties involved. Harsh? Well I suppose so in a way but if you can't separate the real world from the cyber world of the internet then you're probably better off not partaking. The healthiest response is generally to delete all the posts involved and ban one or both offenders. Certainly it is never worth doing much soul searching over.

This forum does fine, as does the 944 community that springs from it. There are one or two things that I'd like to see change, clear identification of traders, the ability to give considered feedback on suppliers (whether that's in a members only area or otherwise), but those are minor issues.

Yes, I think non-members should contribute something to forum costs. One successful approach from other forums is to introduce appropriate commercial advertising which non-members see and members don't. If you don't want to see the adverts then join the club but non-members still get full participation and the club gets a bit of revenue from the advertisers.

As for the PCGB / TIPEC debate. I maintain membership of both. The forum and the 944 community is better here. The local region and general "club stuff" is better and more welcoming at TIPEC.

 

[Veerzigzag]

One successful approach from other forums is to introduce appropriate commercial advertising which non-members see and members don't. If you don't want to see the adverts then join the club but non-members still get full participation and the club gets a bit of revenue from the advertisers.

Very good idea

 

[delays]

I contribute to this forum as a guest; I enjoy reading about these cars, my dad runs one and when I finally bite the bullet I'll join up to the PCGB.

The forum has an incredible level of knowledge and has been superb at helping out with parts and advice when we've had troubles with the Lux. It would be a shame to lose this. I appreciate the more credible, enthusiastic tone of the forum - especially compared to PH which, these days, is full of keyboard warriors.

 

[Mike_Pollock]

ORIGINAL: Veerzigzag

One successful approach from other forums is to introduce appropriate commercial advertising which non-members see and members don't. If you don't want to see the adverts then join the club but non-members still get full participation and the club gets a bit of revenue from the advertisers.

Very good idea

+1 Great idea

 

[Suffolk944]

I am firmly in the if it ain't broke don't fix it camp too.

This forum has always been an excellent source of knowledge and a very friendly place to exchange views/organise events and generally share the enjoyment (and occasional pain) of owning our great cars. Yes there have been a few "rogue elements" who have from time to time upset the apple cart (the painful gap between consecutive posts that Oli refers to is a direct consequence of one such individual and perhaps its time that was removed now ?)

Making it a closed forum to members only would be a huge and catastrophic mistake for the reasons already stated by others, the text speak I personally find a bit jarring but its harmless and I don't think anyone should be in the business of being self appointed grammar police in a way that plagues Pistonheads (amongst other things). We are all grown ups (sort of) but I think posts riddled with swear roads just for the sake of it is not acceptable. Discussions on here can be vigorous but are nearly always conducted respectfully. As a consequence of this moderation on here is done with a light touch and as long as everyone buys into the ethos of that then thats the way it should stay.

In terms of traders then I think that "approved" ones should be allowed and even encouraged to contribute just as long as their posts are not simply adverts in another form.

The mirroring of here and the TIPEC forum is what it is and nothing to get bothered about, its a free country etc etc and people will hop about wherever they feel like. I occasionally swing by there just out of mild interest but thats it.

Offering better features, easier use etc is the way to go, the content and the culture here are spot on.

 

[zcacogp]

For the newbies, this is Jon's message in a 'more easily understood' form:

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

I M firmly n d f it ain't brOk don't fix it camp t%.

DIS 4m hz alwys Bin an XLNT src of knowLdG & a v frndly plAc 2 Xchang views/organiz evnts & gnrle shre d Njoymnt (& ocasinl pain) of owng R gr8 cars. yS ther hav Bin a few "rogue elmnts" hu hav frm tym 2 tym ^set d apL cart (the painful gap Btwen conscutv posts dat Oli rfrs 2 iz a diRct conseqNc of 1 such indivdul & pRhps itz tym dat wz removed nw ?)

makin it a closD 4m 2 mbrs only wud b a huge & catstrphic mstake 4 d reasons alredi stated by others, d txt spk I personally find a bit jarring bt itz harmless & I don't tink any1 shud b n d Biz of bn self appointed grammar police n a way dat plagues Pistonheads (amongst othR things). We R aL grown ups (sort of) bt I tink posts riddled w swear roads jst 4 d sake of it iz not acceptable. Discussions on hEr cn b vigorous bt R nErly alwys conducted respectfully. az a conseqNc of DIS moderation on hEr iz dn w a lite tuch & az lng az evry1 buys in2 d ethos of dat thN datz d way it shud stA.

n terms of traders thN I tink dat "approved" ones shud b allowD & evN encouraged 2 contribute jst az lng az thR posts R not simply adverts n NothA form.

d mirroring of hEr & d TIPEC 4m iz wot it iz & Nuttin 2 git bothered about, itz a frE cuntrE etc etc & ppl wiL hop bout wherever dey fEl lIk. I occasionally swing by ther jst out of mild intRSt bt datz it.

Offering BetA features, EZer uz etc iz d way 2 go, d content & d culture hEr R spot on.

Hope that's helpful! []


Oli.

 

[craiginuk]

+1 for the don't scratch where it doesn't itch camp.

I'm a fairly new member and was directed to the forum via pistonheads when I first started looking for a 944 in 2011. I found extremely valuable advice on here as a non member when buying the car and actually ended up buying a car known to the forum.

Since then I've asked for plenty of advice when doing work on the car, asked plenty of stupid questions, but got great help and advice. I became a paid up member a few months back - actually brought on by the help I had received from one particular forum member who offered to post me a part I was battling to find. I've also tried to contribute where I can when people have asked for pictures of items etc.

I have been to around 4 or 5 944 meets now and really enjoy the forum and meeting up with new and familiar faces. I also think the forum is a great vehicle/platform for organising the less formal gatherings that seem to be great successes.

Bustups on forums are inevetible. I often find myself saving a draft of an email I'm about to send for work. I save it to drafts, let it cool off for a while, and then 9/10 times when I read over it again I don't send it. This tends not to happen on forums as the responses are more instant. We all have bad days - maybe we just need to stop and think from time to time before posting.

I think we have a great 944 forum and community. I like the idea of having advertising to help with running costs visible to non members. But other than that I think it is good as it is.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

For the newbies, this is Jon's message in a 'more easily understood' form:

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

I M firmly n d f it ain't brOk don't fix it camp t%.

DIS 4m hz alwys Bin an XLNT src of knowLdG & a v frndly plAc 2 Xchang views/organiz evnts & gnrle shre d Njoymnt (& ocasinl pain) of owng R gr8 cars. yS ther hav Bin a few "rogue elmnts" hu hav frm tym 2 tym ^set d apL cart (the painful gap Btwen conscutv posts dat Oli rfrs 2 iz a diRct conseqNc of 1 such indivdul & pRhps itz tym dat wz removed nw ?)

makin it a closD 4m 2 mbrs only wud b a huge & catstrphic mstake 4 d reasons alredi stated by others, d txt spk I personally find a bit jarring bt itz harmless & I don't tink any1 shud b n d Biz of bn self appointed grammar police n a way dat plagues Pistonheads (amongst othR things). We R aL grown ups (sort of) bt I tink posts riddled w swear roads jst 4 d sake of it iz not acceptable. Discussions on hEr cn b vigorous bt R nErly alwys conducted respectfully. az a conseqNc of DIS moderation on hEr iz dn w a lite tuch & az lng az evry1 buys in2 d ethos of dat thN datz d way it shud stA.

n terms of traders thN I tink dat "approved" ones shud b allowD & evN encouraged 2 contribute jst az lng az thR posts R not simply adverts n NothA form.

d mirroring of hEr & d TIPEC 4m iz wot it iz & Nuttin 2 git bothered about, itz a frE cuntrE etc etc & ppl wiL hop bout wherever dey fEl lIk. I occasionally swing by ther jst out of mild intRSt bt datz it.

Offering BetA features, EZer uz etc iz d way 2 go, d content & d culture hEr R spot on.

Hope that's helpful! []


Oli.

Innit ! []

 

[TTM]

The content is fine as far as I'm concerned. It is not quite as borderline autistic as some other more tech-oriented forums, but has mostly good humour and some interesting tongue-in-cheek comments (which I quite enjoy as a non-British). As a non-PCGB member I don't feel entitled to comment on how the content should evolve.

Only minor gripe I have is the forum interface - we can't say this software is the most user-friendly, is it?

 

[MJB]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Traders are a big problem with our current rules. We have an absolute "no ads" rule, but we can't expect specialists to advise when every post has to be moderated to avoid any commercial aspects. Plenty of people are being allowed some degree of flexibility here, but what would this forum be without Type 911, Elliot, Jon Mitchel, any number of others. Should we be creating some sort of "trader" forum status to encourage more specialists on?

One of the big problems related to traders which runs across all of the PCGB Forums is the fact that no-one is allowed to 'name and shame' but there is no restriction in offering praise. I feel that these are two sides of the same coin and one should not be permitted without the other. As to which situation is the correct one, however, is a difficult question.

 

[OLD_ian]

Paul

I think the forum is pretty good as it is.

The only thing I might change would be, as John suggested, a relaxation on the rules on vendors. If they're replying to technical questions and have a link to their business, I've got no problem. However I don't want to see postings from idiots selling outrageously priced license plates. I'm phrasing this poorly, but i think if a trader is actually participating in discussion it should be permitted, whereas if they're merely posting ads that's where the line should be drawn.

Regarding the tone, it's fine in general. I've been participating in online forums since the mid-nineties and this is one of the most civilised i've ever participated in. Compared to some of the software discussion groups I've been in everyone here is the very essence of decorum and politeness! As someone else pointed out, the level of moderation is just under the maximum limit of what I'd want to see. Any more moderation and I'd probably leave. Maybe that comes from being from Canada and spending most of my time with Australians, but I'm not very keen on any kind of restriction on what can or can't be said. Having said that I do realise that isn't the way this countries heading at the moment with the new Ministry of Truth.

The forum software itself is clearly very old and usability isn't great. However it does the job. That may be addressed in the review of IT for the club, but it's probably (and rightly so) way down on the list of priorities. I was horrified to find that when I went to update some information on the club site, that I was asked to fill in my personal information on a form that wasn't even SSL protected. Just begging to be hacked. So there's a lot of stuff to be done tech-wise before worrying too much about the forum software.

Regarding guests. It's crucial that guests be allowed to participate. When I bought my car I made several mistakes. One of which was that I should have come on the forum and said "i'm looking for a 944...". It would have saved me a fortune in repair costs. New potential buyers should have that opportunity to come on and learn from the mistakes and take advantage of the advice of current owners.

Ian

 

[944 man]

I feel that this is what Id said, but Im happy to sum it up as: Im very happy with everything as it is and Id be happiest if there werent any fundamental changes.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: _ian

Regarding guests. It's crucial that guests be allowed to participate. When I bought my car I made several mistakes. One of which was that I should have come on the forum and said "i'm looking for a 944...". It would have saved me a fortune in repair costs. New potential buyers should have that opportunity to come on and learn from the mistakes and take advantage of the advice of current owners.

Ian

That's a really good point - and exactly how I found my Boxster

Must also be a good way of recruiting for PCGB

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Thanks for the replies, and the PMs. []

Interesting that you've said moderation is seen to be hovering near to the high side; if you saw how few posts are ever moderated you'd be very surprised. Excluding scammers and spammers, I'd be surprised if more than 10 posts needed attention over a year, if even that many. Nowhere near what most forums moderate. Perhaps the reminders on the front page cause people to see it as heavily moderated? We certainly say we enforce the rules, but in fact it's almost never needed. Funny how things are perceived, which is why I like to ask the questions sometimes!

There's no imminent threat to close the forum to non-members. What I meant was that there is always a call for it from the same people every year, and we have to respect that there are a large number of people who feel it's "their" forum, but I can't see it ever happening unless things changed dramatically. It's worth mentioning, though, as I think it never hurts to remember other people's views need to be considered.

I couldn't agree more that specialists should be able to post more freely. It'll be brought up again, one day it'll get through! A better forum platform is a priority, but key to it will be not losing the information stored here. Whether ads can be targetted to non-members I don't know, but to be honest the forum doesn't cost very much in money terms so I don't think it's necessary to have non-members paying even through ads.

It's very nice to hear the comments about the tone, glad people think it's right. We will never get the "name and shame" argument settled, so we'll all have to agree to disagree on that!

 

[Paul 290T]

I'm happy with the forum as it is. Don't change anything.

 

[colin944]

I'm in the "if it aint broke don't fix it camp"

I would like to think that people only post and give opinions on subjects that they have experience or knowledge of. I have looked at both the Tipec and Pistonheads forums and find I don't like them. I only post on here and occasionally on rennlist.I like the fact that "most" of the advice on here is given by people with knowledge of the subject unlike other forums that have everybody giving their 2p's worth.
I say stick to proper language and decent manners and we will be fine.Anyway we've got rid of nasty posters before and I'm sure we will do it again. Apart from that then a good argument here and there is good for a forum as long as it's done in a decent manner.

 

[Cater_Racer]

ORIGINAL: colin944

I'm in the "if it aint broke don't fix it camp"

I would like to think that people only post and give opinions on subjects that they have experience or knowledge of. I have looked at both the Tipec and Pistonheads forums and find I don't like them. I only post on here and occasionally on rennlist.I like the fact that "most" of the advice on here is given by people with knowledge of the subject unlike other forums that have everybody giving their 2p's worth.
I say stick to proper language and decent manners and we will be fine.Anyway we've got rid of nasty posters before and I'm sure we will do it again. Apart from that then a good argument here and there is good for a forum as long as it's done in a decent manner.

+1