turbo finally "finished" - but at a cost!
- Thread starter Ewan
- Start date
I personally think that dyno numbers are very subjective. Of course we blag some of the U.S. results when many of us R.O.W. players seem to derive quite a lot less with similar or same mods. Even the same brand of Dynos will give a different read depending on how they set the car/dyo up. So it's a matter of conjecture when comparing one result to another. A direct example of this was reaching 359whp on the dyno and then the guy just changed the ramp rates and moved it to 383whp.
Having boosted my motor quite high (for the 944 turbo world) and seen only pretty modest numbers caused me to think that the U.S. guys were dreaming. However on the opposite side of the coin, motors are only pumps. Bearing in mind most of us are running around on 8v heads/cams and stock intakes, throttle bodies, exhaust manifolds, Intercoolers and hardpipes...still, we are so far down the food chain in terms of power/tq numbers for a large capacity motor compared to the 1.6-2ltr Jap crowd, that I have to think we should be able to achieve substantially more. Those dyno figures that I got were with a stock n/a block and head, bigger cam, Intercooler, hardpipes, turbo, exhaust at 23psi (peak 24.5psi). The power didn't flatten out much at all until over 6700rpm. Previously with the exact same hardware and boost, the best I got was 302whp with the Vitesse software. Same brand of dyno, but different shop. Here's the dyno charts. Would like to hear and see some of you guys' charts and mod list + the type of dyno. Oh, and I've finally received delivery of my race 3L 8v motor which will be sent to the same dyno shop for comparison's sake.
With Vitesse V Flex software E85 22psi. (Unable to control timing) As you can see, not much more peak hp with the increased psi pulls. More midrange which led me to believe the stock head was a bottle neck.
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Different shop/same type of dyno. With Motec E85 23psi showing Hp and Tq same psi but different ramp rates to show how dyno's can be manipulated. Oh, and new wastegate after the LR one failed.
Also showing torque curve for both pulls. Not sure why it doesn't x at the 5252rpm mark. They must format their graphs differently.
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Having boosted my motor quite high (for the 944 turbo world) and seen only pretty modest numbers caused me to think that the U.S. guys were dreaming. However on the opposite side of the coin, motors are only pumps. Bearing in mind most of us are running around on 8v heads/cams and stock intakes, throttle bodies, exhaust manifolds, Intercoolers and hardpipes...still, we are so far down the food chain in terms of power/tq numbers for a large capacity motor compared to the 1.6-2ltr Jap crowd, that I have to think we should be able to achieve substantially more. Those dyno figures that I got were with a stock n/a block and head, bigger cam, Intercooler, hardpipes, turbo, exhaust at 23psi (peak 24.5psi). The power didn't flatten out much at all until over 6700rpm. Previously with the exact same hardware and boost, the best I got was 302whp with the Vitesse software. Same brand of dyno, but different shop. Here's the dyno charts. Would like to hear and see some of you guys' charts and mod list + the type of dyno. Oh, and I've finally received delivery of my race 3L 8v motor which will be sent to the same dyno shop for comparison's sake.
With Vitesse V Flex software E85 22psi. (Unable to control timing) As you can see, not much more peak hp with the increased psi pulls. More midrange which led me to believe the stock head was a bottle neck.
Different shop/same type of dyno. With Motec E85 23psi showing Hp and Tq same psi but different ramp rates to show how dyno's can be manipulated. Oh, and new wastegate after the LR one failed.
Also showing torque curve for both pulls. Not sure why it doesn't x at the 5252rpm mark. They must format their graphs differently.
DivineE
New member
Slightly off topic but has anyone solved the 3.0 'cough' at 2700 ish rpm yet?
I've felt the exact same symptom in three different 3.0 + cars all running different parts and maps. I also remember ttm describing the same. That makes 4.
Seems odd no one can point to an obvious cause.
As for which way to go.. Now that is a tough one. I think I've been most routes now and I still haven't found the 'right' way to have a 400hp + 944.
I ended up taking the low budget option and moving to a 996 turbo for my big power thrills. Good luck.
I've felt the exact same symptom in three different 3.0 + cars all running different parts and maps. I also remember ttm describing the same. That makes 4.
Seems odd no one can point to an obvious cause.
As for which way to go.. Now that is a tough one. I think I've been most routes now and I still haven't found the 'right' way to have a 400hp + 944.
I ended up taking the low budget option and moving to a 996 turbo for my big power thrills. Good luck.
Indeed they are, that's why we used to try and get together for definitive results, same dyno, same day, tricky for you! we did have various results across, I dont doubt yours will come out somewhere near the top!
I did see suggested on rennlist some years back we should compare in gear acceleration GPS speed / stop watch in a video and say third gear, tick over to red line - would be interesting, there is probably an android/apple app that will plot gps speed against time so should be easier now.
Our graphs discussed are generally flywheel horsepower so even more space for inaccuracies to creep in as well.
Yes, that's right. Some people definitely had this. I went through it also briefly. Chased it for a while and then I think I had one of my engine failures which wasn't related. Came back with the new motor and the hesitation was gone. This was also with Vitesse software on the car but I have no proof that this was the cause. This is what it looked like. PS Sorry to the O.P. for dragging the thread off course a bit but it's just a forum chat so no offense intended.
Neil Haughey
New member
Do or did you guys feel that you got hooked into chasing the big numbers and regret it? The reason why I say that is that back when I first bought the S2 it was a conscious decision not to get another turbo car because I knew I would get sucked into chasing power.
OT but I note Ben has gone and got himself the same sort of hack as me, you couldn't get a car on the planet more different to a boosted 944 than a 1.2 punto or panda. Strangely satisfying raggin the nuts of a tiny car that runs out of puff within legal limits.
OT but I note Ben has gone and got himself the same sort of hack as me, you couldn't get a car on the planet more different to a boosted 944 than a 1.2 punto or panda. Strangely satisfying raggin the nuts of a tiny car that runs out of puff within legal limits.
DivineE
New member
I remember it from when I went out in your car but that was a long long time ago! Pre maf even.
My car was still doing it a year or so after I sold it when I last went out as a passenger at silverstone.. but my god was it nice to remember the power! What an engine.
As for the chasing power thing it is a tough one. I love power but it is always costly.
The fiat us a stop gap for me really but it is fun to abuse
I've actually ordered a new mini it's the nicest of the cars I could afford new and allows me to fix my costs for a while with a 3 year warranty, 5 years free servicing and no mots. Plus it's cheap to tax, insure and fuel while I finish my studies.Neil Haughey
New member
Its a slippery slope going the other way Ben. I bought the Panda because I have been doing a lot of commuting recently, the incredible cheapness of running the thing though I think is having a profound effect on my attitude towards cars. Its funny I can remember Fen telling me a few years back that he spent £19K in one year and I thought it was crazy only to go and do exactly that when I started with the racing lark.
The way I see it is like this: Not many ppl ever get this opportunity to properly experience a 400 Bhp sports car or go racing a Porsche. I would thus always say if someone can afford it go for it as no one ever has a clue what it is really like until they experience it for themselves. In cold hard financial terms neither make any sense but life is all about living it and these are things which just have a certain cost of entry. The nearest analogy I can think of is something like going to the Himalayas or Peru or something, one can look at the pictures on TV or the internet but everyone understands you have to go there to really experience it.
The way I see it is like this: Not many ppl ever get this opportunity to properly experience a 400 Bhp sports car or go racing a Porsche. I would thus always say if someone can afford it go for it as no one ever has a clue what it is really like until they experience it for themselves. In cold hard financial terms neither make any sense but life is all about living it and these are things which just have a certain cost of entry. The nearest analogy I can think of is something like going to the Himalayas or Peru or something, one can look at the pictures on TV or the internet but everyone understands you have to go there to really experience it.
TTM
Well-known member
Not really looking for more power on a turbo that is already a bit of an overwhelming drive, but rather trying to put together a comprehensive package that should net more power as a side result. I have never craved for lack of traction on a 944, going sideways on these cars requires a fair amount of wrestling because of that high polar moment of inertia and feels at odds with the mostly GT character of the car, though I thoroughly enjoy that sort of thing with muscle cars, etc.
944Scott
New member
ORIGINAL: PSH
Agree fully on the standard exhaust, this and the fact that I had the car mapped to run on 95ron is why she remained below 400BHP which is why I have just aquired a 3" custom built Magnaflow system including turbo downpipe just to run the new engine in, the final exhaust has tested at 30-50bhp extra at the wheels, I'm not worried about hitting my target..
Also agreed that a 3L is capable of revving like a 2.5 but doubt it would be as responsive no matter how well setup..
Pete
So it was you who out bid me, maganflow tend to be bass heavy and we have had some resonance problems with the one of the beemer.
PSH
PCGB Member
I was planning on doing so as in the pictures they didn't look very good, however now that I have the system they are pretty nice although I'll leave the final decision until I see what they look like when fitted to the car. Currently the car has a twin pipe Janspeed back box so I'm not that adverse to twin pipes.
Pete
Neil, I think that if many of us had our time over again we'd do things differently. I know I would. I've had a LOT of things go wrong and also know a few people in this thread that have had their disappointments. I'd still pursue a special turbo 944 as I'm frustratingly addicted to these cars, but I'd just go straight to the race car route and avoid a lot of pitfalls that's I've fallen into. I have a perverse idea of building a special Time Attack version but this type of racing is getting very high end and developed. There are some of these cars that are as fast as a V8 Radical and they're on R spec rubber! Insane power and aero but interesting to watch them develop. Sure, it's not 'proper' door to door racing but many of the rules are more liberal in this field. I'd love to do what you're doing also. Probably would do that in an S2 also.
No. I enjoyed my car as it was, and I enjoyed the work that went into getting it that way. I regret not sorting the temp sensor sooner that led to the rich running and bore washing that finished it off (well back to 320BHP and massive oil use). I was never after really big numbers, I did a lot of miles in it so didn't want to run over 18psi.
However there were always things that were annoying and to sort those to make it reliable at decent power levels would be an expensive game - all new hoses - new loom - new sensors - rebore - new psitons etc. and to maintian the levels of power that made it fun 350+ it would still be fragile. That is the appeal of the V8, all new - modern ecu - unstressed 400+ BHP decent service intervals etc. driving not tuning! must get on with it.
Tony
PSH
PCGB Member
er, no.. I had fun doing the car and looking forward to the next stage which btw will be stage 3.
stage1 282bhp.... new to the car and modifying a turbo
stage2 368bhp.... had learnt a lot over the previous 5 years and understood a lot more about the 944 turbo
stage3?????..... now know the car and available mods inside out and how to get what I need from it, looking forward to
Discovering just how far I can go while keeping the car standard looking on the outside and usable on the
road.
stage4.............will there be one??....probably
Pete
engine at stage 2
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