turbo finally "finished" - but at a cost!

[George Elliott]

George, Great to hear that SPS car is still treating you well.

Hi Ben, yes it s a well resolved spec - nothing OTT but improved significantly in key areas, nice old thing to drive. It won't turn a profit so maybe not so wise, but it has not cost me any more to run than a family A6 TDI which pains me as I am allergic to depreciation.[]

Good to see how G161 project works out, I think I recall hearing the 2.8L engine had 400 hp potential??

George
944t

 

[Ex Skyline]

450 bhp so i was told.
Pete

 

[Diver944]

You'll need the full range of bolt ons to get to that figure Pete, my own 3.2L never got higher than 393 bhp at 18psi and always needed more money spending on it to get past restrictions that were holding it back or causing it damage.

I really look forward to hearing how your project works out. As Ewan and myself have already found out these things tend to run on much longer than anticipated and cost much more than originally budgeted. Make sure you agree a timescale and a price beforehand or you may feel you'll never get to play with your new toy. The build of my 3.2L took over 18 months and once finished it was constantly going back for further fettling. Just before I sold her I totted up that she was actually only in my possession for about 11 months out of the 6 years since the conversion was done.

They were damned good 11 months though [8D][8D][8D]

 

[nick_968]

Easy to turn the boost up and get more power, but how long does it last along with the rest of the components putting the power down! 380 is about right for a 3.0 with modest mods, 450 for a 2.8 is either a dreamers dyno or a high boost, peaky turbo short life setup. My 3.0 makes 370hp at 1 bar (on a proper dyno) currently with the torque about the same. Hoping for a little more now with the new exhaust, cam and intercooler but would be more than happy with 400/400. Glory dyno runs are one thing but sustainable track power and keeping temps under control are another!

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

Easy to turn the boost up and get more power, but how long does it last along with the rest of the components putting the power down! 380 is about right for a 3.0 with modest mods, 450 for a 2.8 is either a dreamers dyno or a high boost, peaky turbo short life setup. My 3.0 makes 370hp at 1 bar (on a proper dyno) currently with the torque about the same. Hoping for a little more now with the new exhaust, cam and intercooler but would be more than happy with 400/400. Glory dyno runs are one thing but sustainable track power and keeping temps under control are another!

Hmmm.. I have to disagree with this statement, it's not just about what you bolt on, far more important is who you get to map the car and I'll prove this once my engine is finished. A 2.8 will have no problem achieving over 400bhp, same goes for a 2.5 if the right components are used and as I said properly mapped. Regarding how long it will last? again it's down to the mapping, one thing is certain you won't achieve these type of figures safely with off the shelve chips. My own car was used as a daily car for many years producing 368bhp/382tq ( from a proper dyno) without issue and that was using a standard exhaust, this alone disproves the above statement. This time around I promise you she will achieve far more and still be a 2.5, I prefer to have a more revy and responsive engine which is why I keep it at 2.5. As to cost which has been spoken off well you guys really don't want to know how much I've spent over my 14 years of ownership but as taster my newly machined block/crank, race pistons, oversize bearings and complete set of Raceware studs alone have cost over £3k and I have ( i suspect) at least another £8k to go before I'm finished with the mods needed for my target of 450bhp.
The one thing I'm not decided on yet is gearbox and driveshafts but I have plenty of time begore worrying about this, I'll run the car in first.
For people wanting extra power safely my first piece of advise is get the best for the mapping and make sure they know the car intimately, preferably with racing experience.

Pete

 

[TTM]

Running the stock exhaust on an engine putting down more than 350 bhp may not lead to spectacular failure but may apply excessive stress over the long term on most mechanical components.
Our engines are bullet proof, so while such a set up may last long before anything goes seriously wrong, eg running lots of boost but a a very modest ignition timing profile, this is not the right way to do it.

By the way, a 3.0 engine with a free-er breathing intake and exhaust will rev just as well as a 2.5, though I will concede that doing it right can be a real path of the cross at times [8|]

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: TTM

Running the stock exhaust on an engine putting down more than 350 bhp may not lead to spectacular failure but may apply excessive stress over the long term on most mechanical components.
Our engines are bullet proof, so while such a set up may last long before anything goes seriously wrong, eg running lots of boost but a a very modest ignition timing profile, this is not the right way to do it.

By the way, a 3.0 engine with a free-er breathing intake and exhaust will rev just as well as a 2.5, though I will concede that doing it right can be a real path of the cross at times [8|]

Agree fully on the standard exhaust, this and the fact that I had the car mapped to run on 95ron is why she remained below 400BHP which is why I have just aquired a 3" custom built Magnaflow system including turbo downpipe just to run the new engine in, the final exhaust has tested at 30-50bhp extra at the wheels, I'm not worried about hitting my target..

Also agreed that a 3L is capable of revving like a 2.5 but doubt it would be as responsive no matter how well setup..

Pete

 

[TTM]

Please define "responsive"

Both engines can have lots of weight removed from the crank/rods/pistons/flywheel and get rev happy to a point even a decent driver will end up moaning how slow gearchanges become, and this can be somewhat compensated for/messed with by injection timing and coil dwell. Which now raises discussions on spark ignition and injection set up (sequential injection and/or spark ignition, wasted spark ignition, group/staged injection, etc). Subjects that are growing me white hair earlier than it should

 

[PSH]

Well I guess having a shorter stroke is the biggest benifit, both can loose turning mass to hel, admittedly I havn't looked very closely at the 2.8/3.0 route.
Yes sequential injection and wasted spark are on my list as Vitesse supports both. Two of my sons use wasted spark on their fords with good results, cossie at 460bhp and RS escort 2.1 zetec with 315bhp. Btw both cars have had maching done by myself, cossie had work on the pistons and Ztec had some block mods although both were done at my eldest sons request, he knows far more about modifying cars than I ever will..

Pete

 

[TTM]

Will be interested to know how you get on with your Vitesse MAF.
I always had good results with mine though I grew tired of not being able to dig into the software and settings as much as I wanted to.
Not sure it supports sequential injection though, I always thought it was batch injection, as sequential will require a cam angle sensor.

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: TTM

Will be interested to know how you get on with your Vitesse MAF.
I always had good results with mine though I grew tired of not being able to dig into the software and settings as much as I wanted to.
Not sure it supports sequential injection though, I always thought it was batch injection, as sequential will require a cam angle sensor.

Sorry my mistake, sequential injection will be at the stand alone EMS stage which will be after running in, I get confused sometimes with all of the mods, I could never sell this car, any new owner would have a knightmare trying to work out what's what. As for the Vitesse IMHO it's the best MAF system for the 951 available, the latest Vitesse+ looks even better, IIRC I've been using John's system since 2005 with nothing but praise for it.

Pete

 

[George Elliott]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

Easy to turn the boost up and get more power, but how long does it last along with the rest of the components putting the power down! 380 is about right for a 3.0 with modest mods, 450 for a 2.8 is either a dreamers dyno or a high boost, peaky turbo short life setup. My 3.0 makes 370hp at 1 bar (on a proper dyno) currently with the torque about the same. Hoping for a little more now with the new exhaust, cam and intercooler but would be more than happy with 400/400. Glory dyno runs are one thing but sustainable track power and keeping temps under control are another!



Hmmm.. I have to disagree with this statement,[/quote]

I'd be more cautious about disagreeing with a guy with a 370bhp 3.0L (1 bar) engine Pete, largely because I know he could have claimed a bigger number by going 1.2 or 1.4 bar. (or going to a different dyno), so I think you are talking to a realist there, who knows the big boost trick is artificial, and is not impressed by it. Just my opinion.

Right or wrong, and time will tell, - but a 380 car should generally hold onto the coat tails of a 996GT3 to 170mph, and not give an inch, and the 450 target you have will do the same to a 996GT2. Stuff the dyno's - line them up and lets see the reality. Perhaps 6 runs each way to avoid any qualifying boost bluffing??
Oh, and invite the Cossies for completeness??[]

George
944t

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: PSH

ORIGINAL: nick_968

Easy to turn the boost up and get more power, but how long does it last along with the rest of the components putting the power down! 380 is about right for a 3.0 with modest mods, 450 for a 2.8 is either a dreamers dyno or a high boost, peaky turbo short life setup. My 3.0 makes 370hp at 1 bar (on a proper dyno) currently with the torque about the same. Hoping for a little more now with the new exhaust, cam and intercooler but would be more than happy with 400/400. Glory dyno runs are one thing but sustainable track power and keeping temps under control are another!

Hmmm.. I have to disagree with this statement, it's not just about what you bolt on, far more important is who you get to map the car and I'll prove this once my engine is finished. A 2.8 will have no problem achieving over 400bhp, same goes for a 2.5 if the right components are used and as I said properly mapped. Regarding how long it will last? again it's down to the mapping, one thing is certain you won't achieve these type of figures safely with off the shelve chips. My own car was used as a daily car for many years producing 368bhp/382tq ( from a proper dyno) without issue and that was using a standard exhaust, this alone disproves the above statement. This time around I promise you she will achieve far more and still be a 2.5, I prefer to have a more revy and responsive engine which is why I keep it at 2.5. As to cost which has been spoken off well you guys really don't want to know how much I've spent over my 14 years of ownership but as taster my newly machined block/crank, race pistons, oversize bearings and complete set of Raceware studs alone have cost over £3k and I have ( i suspect) at least another £8k to go before I'm finished with the mods needed for my target of 450bhp.
The one thing I'm not decided on yet is gearbox and driveshafts but I have plenty of time begore worrying about this, I'll run the car in first.
For people wanting extra power safely my first piece of advise is get the best for the mapping and make sure they know the car intimately, preferably with racing experience.

Pete

I was not aware that I said it was just about what you bolt on and the mapping was not important. Also using a car as a daily driver does not mean the engine would last long driven flat out on a track all day, not saying yours would not by the way. I am sure to get to the figures you state above that your engine is in good condition and you made some well chosen mods and I am sure you know far more about tuning cars that I do and good luck with the next stage of your project. My point was that lots of people think you can build a 2.8 or a 3.0 and it will by default make big power, a reliable track worthy 2.8 making a TRUE 450hp will be very expensive to build for someone who outsources the work. Who does your mapping out of interest?

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott



ORIGINAL: nick_968

Easy to turn the boost up and get more power, but how long does it last along with the rest of the components putting the power down! 380 is about right for a 3.0 with modest mods, 450 for a 2.8 is either a dreamers dyno or a high boost, peaky turbo short life setup. My 3.0 makes 370hp at 1 bar (on a proper dyno) currently with the torque about the same. Hoping for a little more now with the new exhaust, cam and intercooler but would be more than happy with 400/400. Glory dyno runs are one thing but sustainable track power and keeping temps under control are another!



Hmmm.. I have to disagree with this statement,

I'd be more cautious about disagreeing with a guy with a 370bhp 3.0L (1 bar) engine Pete, largely because I know he could have claimed a bigger number by going 1.2 or 1.4 bar. (or going to a different dyno), so I think you are talking to a realist there, who knows the big boost trick is artificial, and is not impressed by it. Just my opinion.

Right or wrong, and time will tell, - but a 380 car should generally hold onto the coat tails of a 996GT3 to 170mph, and not give an inch, and the 450 target you have will do the same to a 996GT2. Stuff the dyno's - line them up and lets see the reality. Perhaps 6 runs each way to avoid any qualifying boost bluffing??
Oh, and invite the Cossies for completeness??[]

George
944t











[/quote]

Haha.... The 996 will always win top end due to gearing, below that would be interesting. Certainly the 996TT isn't a problem mid range as one found out over a 20 mile distance along the M3 a few years back. As for the cossie's well not so sure about that, I've driven my sons and it's fast, even faster when he's driving...

 

[PSH]

[/quote]

My point was that lots of people think you can build a 2.8 or a 3.0 and it will by default make big power, a reliable track worthy 2.8 making a TRUE 450hp will be very expensive to build for someone who outsources the work. Who does your mapping out of interest?

[/quote]


Ahhh, yes sorry Nick you are totally correct in this, which ever size engine someone decides on 2.5,2.8,3.0 etc you have to invest a vast amount of money and time for big gains in power. What I was trying to say regarding bolt on parts is that you need to carefully match components and also have the car properly set up with a day on the dyno to get the big figures. When my car made 368bhp that wasn't as far as it could go, we had played with it for nearly 8 hours on the dyno progressively increasing the power, it was I who said stop at 368bhp. Today I would let the guy doing the mapping go a lot further as I trust his work and more importantly I now have total confidence on the Porsche 944 engine, especially an 86 car. I look forward to this latest round of mods, I hope it will be the last but somehow I doubt it..

Pete

 

[George Elliott]

[]

keep up the good work, I enjoy your enthusiasm almost as much as the prospect of a 450hp 951 on an honest GB (not USA) dyno.

A 6 ratio box is a small advantage, but there again the lower 951 final drive cancels that out?

I picked up your comment, because I am aware that:

450 hp does not grow on trees.....it takes lots of work and skill
cubic capacity is highly relevant........exception being TAG Porsche technology[8|]
when a figure is quoted, it has to be sustainable / reliable, not a grenade engine.

good night

George
944t

 

[944Turbo]

The na fith gear in a turbo box gives around 200mph in 5th - the mod is detailed in the v8 build manual.
Tony

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

The na fith gear in a turbo box gives around 200mph in 5th - the mod is detailed in the v8 build manual.
Tony

That's interesting Tony, I wonder if it's strong enough as I doubt it's hardened to the same extent as the turbo gears. Mind you perhaps it's not such a problem being it's the higher gear although I wonder how it would react to a redline up-shift from 4th which er... has been known happen now and then...

Pete

 

[944Turbo]

I think only first and second were hardened - not sure where it will drop you too in the rev band changing from 4th to 5th, the V8s can handle it but if its too far off boost it wouldn't be much good.
Tony

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

Who does your mapping out of interest?

Sorry Nick only just noticed this question, well I did say I'm getting old...

Wayne Scofield of chip wizards in Rochdale, I know some don't like his manor, me , I've been using Wayne since 2000 and have always found his work to be the best available. He's a difficult man to get hold of but then he's very busy, I discovered him on the Porsche cup championship circuit when his race car set up 944T's where easily beating the best that Porsche had to offer. Back then he worked for Redline racing, today he has his own company Chip Wizards. He doesn't just know how to set up a car properly, he also understands ECU's and I've known him work through the night to custom build from scratch an EMS needed for a 600bhp mini that was due to rally the next day that refused to achieve the figures needed with it's fitted stand alone system. You don't learn that from just playing around with software on a dyno..

Pete

no interest in his business just a very satisfied customer.