thinking of buying a 944

[Guest]

hi iv just joined ur forum, im thinking of buying an E reg 944 2.5 non turbo. its got cloth seats electric windows and mirrors and electric seats. everythin works apart from the paggengers window and door mirrors. the guy is wanting £2400 for it with a full yrs mot. how much do you think its worth and how much will i be to sort the things thats wrong with it? cheers

 

[homesea]

Its hard to say without looking at it. I paid £2600 for mine but it is in very good conditon.

Electric seats, windows etc are on all of them I think.

My side window, mirror and locking stopped working on the passanger side and it turned out to be just the loom had come un-pluged.

 

[John Sims]

Hi Als', and welcome to the forum.

It would be worth you having a search through the forum, particularly at the buying guide.

The main thing to note is a cheap 944 is still an old Porsche. Even though it doesn't command the same market value as a classic 911 there is no reason why it should be any cheaper to run and maintain.

Things to consider straight away are a £1500+ first service bill. Unless you have a records of a cam belt change in the last 3 years it will need doing straight away. Equally it would be prudent to replace the water pump while the cam belts are being done if no previous record of such exists.

After that it is all down to what wears out next - unless rust gets it first. Rust isn't a big issue on 944s but they don't last for ever. Five years ago none of as mentioned rust as it wasn't an issue. Now, all of us have some some where.

 

[locodude]

As has been said above, I paid £2450 for my '87 'S' which while cosmetically is in excellent shape and outwardly needed not a lot doing, I am currently making my way through a long list of 'faults'. This of course depends how picky you are about your car. My friends think it's next to perfect for a 20 year old car whilst all I can see are the faults (however minor!). I would bank on spending at least £750 after purchase as a minimum, I'm lucky as I'm pretty handy with the spanners and there's no job on the car I won't tackle. Having said all that, go for it, you won't regret it.[]

 

[homesea]

You don't have to spend thousands on them, I bought mine 8 months ago and so far spent £220. £120 of that was a new tyre!
It needs a few bits now, these will be done over the next few months but that will only total about £400.
Like locodude I do all my own work because
1) I don't trust the work any garage will do. If you do it yourself you know its right
2) I refuse to pay the labour charges of so called specialist.

This brings me on to my next point you would have to have your head examined to spend £1500 in one go on a £2500 car.
The only time I can see its worth it is if you get the car for £1500 less.
Some people don't realise that 944's are just another car and compared with modern cars not very complicated at all.
So most tasks can be done at home. But they are 20 years old so need looking after.
The prices on 944's all over the place, you can buy an OK runner for less then 1k but people still want over 4k for a nice lux.

Its down to how much you want to spend I guess.

 

[John Sims]

But that is the point- just because a car didn't cost much to buy doesn't mean it doesn't need expensive work done on it. If any thing a cheap car is more likely to cost money in the short term.

 

[John Sims]

£100 in 8 months? You cheap skate! I've spent more than that on replacement bolts alone.

 

[locodude]

I tend to fall between the two camps. I feel the jobs must be done and done properly as and when funds permit. If money has to be spent then so be it. I count working on the car as one of my hobbies so it's no great hardship for me and if any job turns out to be a bit bigger or harder than first anticipated then it's a challenge. As for monies spent since purchase I don't really keep count but parts fitted so far are:- two tyres, battery, dizzy cap and rotor arm, cv joint and a pair of rear shocks. Belts and rollers to come in the winter lay off!

 

[homesea]

John have you looked into getting professional help? £100 on bolts? Are they gold plated with diamond tips? LoL.

I am not saying I let the car fall apart then spend money on it, it's just not needed it.

For example I have a small nock at the moment on the steering column it nocks 1 out of 500 turns of the wheel, I have looked into it and it's just the joint half way down. I know people who would have changed the whole steering column and rack the 1st time it happened. But for me it's on my list and will get done before Christmas.

Back to als question, I spent 3 years on and off looking for the right 944 and I noticed over those 3 years how much the price has dropped and also how many are for sale. So for £2500 on a lux or maybe a 's' you should get a nice one.

 

[Diver944]

It may seem OTT, but it is often a good idea to have the car inspected by someone who knows 944s. It could save you money in the long run as there are some items that cost hundreds and hundreds of pounds that may be just about to wear out. Most Porsche specialists will do this but you will generally have to get the car to them.

Impossible to value any car without seeing it, as at this age it is all down to individual condition, and the prices are all over the place. £2400 is certainly in the ball park but you can pick up running 944's from anywhere between £1k and £5k. Rust is potentially the biggest cost problem nowadays so have a good long look at the sills and all the wheel arches.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: homesea

John have you looked into getting professional help? £100 on bolts? Are they gold plated with diamond tips? .....

I don't like putting back 20 year old rusty nuts and bolts when I can use new ones. It makes subsequent servicing easier, makes it look like the car is cared for and ensures the bolts have the correct rating and can achieve the correct torque setting. When our cars were built they were engineered as performance cars. You will be stunned as to the different types of nuts and bolts used (even though most of them come undone with a 13mm spanner [])

I accept that the bearing thread of most bolts is often unharmed by rust because it is within the assembly but as you undo and reassemble it you pick up all sorts of crud in the thread from the rusty end. Nasty!

It is all to do with keeping everything clean so when I work on the car I don't get oil, rust and other detritus up to my elbows. I look at working on my 944 in the same way as I worked on my racing car. If everything is clean you can see immediately if there are any leaks, failures etc.

I thought everyone did it. You mean there are people who put nasty nuts back? []

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

.... it is often a good idea to have the car inspected by someone who knows 944s. It could save you money in the long run ...

Agree 100%. Beaky was inspected by the AA prior to purchase. Aside confirming that the bloke selling the car actually owned the car it was a complete waste of money. Despite being the AA's "Performance Car" specialist he knew next to nothing about 944's.

 

[metric_thumbs]

ORIGINAL: John Sims

I don't like putting back 20 year old rusty nuts and bolts when I can use new ones. It makes subsequent servicing easier, makes it look like the car is cared for and ensures the bolts have the correct rating and can achieve the correct torque setting. When our cars were built they were engineered as performance cars. You will be stunned as to the different types of nuts and bolts used (even though most of them come undone with a 13mm spanner [])

I accept that the bearing thread of most bolts is often unharmed by rust because it is within the assembly but as you undo and reassemble it you pick up all sorts of crud in the thread from the rusty end. Nasty!

I thought everyone did it. You mean there are people who put nasty nuts back? []

I certainly do not re-use old screws, bolts or nuts.
False economy - and can cause problems. Old bolts rusty or not can end up 'loose' even if you torque them up 'correctly'. The torque you see on your spanner is not correctly translated to the thread bearing area, change in the friction properties at the thead bearing surfaceand the change in the stress/strain relationship of the aged bolt can mean you end up with some bolts not holding the parst together correctly.

Also the judcious use of stainless steel can make future strip downs much easier.

But - as a word of warning - in high stress applications do not use stainless by default, as it has different elastic properties to the specified high tensile steel and that change ccould cause a failure.

[] Lesson over [X(]

 

[morris944s2john]

DON"T use stainless steel nuts and bolts! and certainly not stainless bolts into mild steel captive nuts. They will cause bi-metallic corrosion, the stainless item will be fine but the mild steel its bolted into (your car!) will rust much faster.

use zinc plated fixings, a squirt of waxoyl can help prevent rust.

 

[metric_thumbs]

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john

DON"T use stainless steel nuts and bolts! and certainly not stainless bolts into mild steel captive nuts. They will cause bi-metallic corrosion, the stainless item will be fine but the mild steel its bolted into (your car!) will rust much faster..

You gotta explain that one to me!!
How will the stainless cause the carbon steel to corrode any more than a carbon steel to carbons steel interface?
I am looking forward to your electrochemical reasoning.

 

[morris944s2john]

Its called bimetallic corrosion. Put two different metals in contact in a corrosive environment (damp, road salt etc) and one will corrode much more than the other. Stainless steel contains chromium among other metals and is effectively a different metal to mild steel. The mild steel will be the sacrificial anode to your nice shiny stainless bolts.

Wikki it for a more detailed explanation.

 

[morris944s2john]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

From that article:-

"Galvanic corrosion
Galvanic corrosion occurs when a galvanic cell is formed between two dissimilar metals. The resulting electrochemical potential then leads to formation of an electric current that leads to electrolytic dissolving of the less noble material. This effect can be prevented by electrical insulation of the materials, e.g. by using rubber or plastic sleeves or washers, keeping the parts dry so there is no electrolyte to form the cell, or keeping the size of the less-noble material significantly larger than the more noble ones (e.g. stainless-steel bolts in an aluminum block won't cause corrosion, but aluminum rivets on stainless steel sheet would rapidly corrode).
If these options are not available to protect from galvanic corrosion, a sacrificial anode can be used to protect the less noble metal. For example, if a system is composed of 316 SS, a very noble alloy with a low galvanic potential, and a mild steel, a very active metal with high galvanic potential, the mild steel will corrode in the presence of an electrolyte such as salt water.

 

[metric_thumbs]

But ......
The reason Stainless is looks satinless is not because of the relative postion in the gavanic series, it is because the nature of its corrosion products.
Iron (or low carbon steels) corrode quickly because their oxides occupy a greater volume than the metal from which they come. When iron oxidises its oxide is bigger than the underlying crystal from which it came so the oxide gets big and spalls off - nice new shiny iron again - this corrodes - and so it oxidises, spall, new iron, oxidise spall etc etc.
On Aluminium, Chromium and others - the oxide product is less voluminous than the underlying metal. So as fresh metal is exposed to oxygen, the oxidation product seals it and so no fresh metal and no more corrosion.

Now - when a Stainless setscrew is inserted into a carbon steel captive nut the oxide coating acts as a barrier to the galvanic cell and so the electrolysis process does not get a good hold. I agee some grease also helps - I took that as a given. As there are no expansive products of corrosion your setscrew will come out easier in a couple of years than any carbon steel set screw.
I have been using SS screws in car rebuilds for a long time and, outside of the theoretical reasoning above, I know that the result is better with decent stainless.


But (again) if the application has some fretting between the two metal types, or the method of corrossion is NOT oxidisation (sulpherisation for example) - I can start agreeing with you that using two metal types is a possible cause of corrosion. The fretting rubs the protective corrosion products off and non-oxides can be bigger or transmit the corrosive products through the film.



You will note - I can bore for England.[:-]

Edit reason - you don't think I could have written that and made no spelling mistooks.

 

[morris944s2john]

Its OK to use stainless bolts in a large block of Aluminium. For instance the S2 /Turbo Brembo callipers. They corrode as standard because of the mix of stainless plates in contact with ali, and both in contact with the mild steel bolt.

For sacrificial surface oxide protection, zinc coated is the best, and a squirt of thread sealant on the threads and waxoyl on the exposed areas of the bolt.

We are getting somwehat off topic here! The original poster was thinking of buying a 944. I say, stop thinking and buy one!

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
....... The original poster was thinking of buying a 944. I say, stop thinking and buy one!

But not if he is just thinking he is buying a cheap car. If you want a cheap car get something modern - it will cause you less grief.

However, if you want a car that will involve you, technically, emotionally, dynamically and (with the Club) socially there is nothing better than a 944 (or 924 []).

I've said before that 944 ownership is a roller coaster of emotions with the frustration, despair and anguish of things not working or ceasing to work, spares costing more than you anticipated, easy jobs taking longer to undertake because the part is buried under 20 other components that have to be removed first. Rust. The knowledge that many jobs/parts/upgrades may cost more than you paid for the car in the first place. The knowledge that, if your pride and joy gets hit it is unlikely that it will be repaired but more likely written off.

On the up side you have the satisfaction of fixin' somefin' what was broke and one of the best driving experiences this side of a car costing £60K...............oh and the opportunity to hang out with us. []