Saratoga Sunroof - Bulk-Buy

[John Sims]

Rather than try and machine sundry versions of a solution perhaps someone with a 3D printer [8|] could generate a template piece to try? I wouldn't necessarily trust a 3D printed part as a permanent solution but it could certainly establish what the mountings should look like.

 

[vitesse]

The sad thing is-glass & fixings aren't rocket science-Pilks have a huge technical manual that explains everything-they call the system -Planer,or Planar=ie those huge glass canopies held up by struts with what they describe as Spiders(reminiscent of Porsche?) or curtain glass walling held back to a steel building structure.

The main thing with fixings is to ensure the metal fixing is well insulated from the glass it passes through & on every clamping surface.

The book gives general recommendations with generic equations-however this is predominantly for building use & to satisfy Building Regs,Health & Safety issues especially where glass barriers are used or glass floors for example.

In compression,glass is very strong so as long as you have fibre,plastic or GRP flanged bushes to fit the fixing holes,it is difficult to break the glass just tightening up the bolt system particularly if the suggested torque figures are adhered to.

Solaglas also do a more compact handbook which is a mine of information-probably possible to pick one up at one of their local distribution branches.

I actually have one as used to design & install glazed handrailings,balconies,canopies amongst the decorative cast ironwork my company produced.

 

[944Fripp]

I have 3 different 3D printers and the CAD is easy. Not sure what the purpose of the exercise is though as really it needs threads to test (which need to be modeled or tapped into the part with an imperial tap) but given the strength of most 3D printed materials and the accuracy of most of the processes I don't think they'll tell us more than the existing monkey metal when tested. Especially as it's not costing much to get them machined in Ali. Might be worth 3D printing some different spacers though? !

Unless anyone has access to a SLS or DMS 3D printer as this could work!

Was thinking that another way to improve the thread engagement is to remove some material from the cam.

 

[GlennS]

I'm curious. Aren't we expecting Pilkington to fix this? They must know HOW to do it properly as they sold quite a few of the things in the US.

 

[unavara]

I'm curious. Aren't we expecting Pilkington to fix this? They must know HOW to do it properly as they sold quite a few of the things in the US.

Exactly.

No offence to anyone of course; but for guarantee reasons also (by the way: are we getting one ?) I would be highly reluctant to accept any adjustment that is not carried out by Pilkington themselves.

Antony

(Iris blue Sport)

 

[tref]

I have another solution... I have three very rare brand new original mushrooms for a Saratoga roof panel. One used only once, the other two brand new... I am open to sensible (three figure before the decimal point []) offers, before they go on ebay! []

 

[dave993cars]

Although delivered as per last post, having looked at the sunroof today (beautiful as it is) I have decided not to fit as the buttons are very poor, I would be surprised if they didn't break if I tried to fit the roof today, if not they most certainly would sooner than later, I will not be looking to send it back but would hope there will be a resolve very soon, I like the idea of manufacturing 160 new fixings and having these fitted, quick and easy fit ? no more time wasting.

Dave S

 

[JamieMac]

Has anybody else's got a wonky centre tab, like mine? (oo-er)

I agree with the above regarding resolution - I'm waiting to see what Pilkington come up with before attempting any DIY solutions

If their solution is for us to fit new fixings and it trashes the panel, then they would be liable not me. To be honest I would prefer if they came and collected it to take away for repair!

 

[John Sims]

I agree that the supplier should sort it out. Obviously you have been provided with something which is not fit for purpose. It is up to the supplier to either sort it out or refund you.

Assuming you don't want a refund, perhaps Pilkington would consider a "signficant" discount if you were to take on the liability of arriving at your own solution.

You could always bold the glass panel into the hole.

 

[blade7]

You could always bold the glass panel into the hole.

[]. I'm assuming the Ford glass sunroofs I had 30+ years ago were bonded onto the tilt/slide mechanism, I've never heard of those failing. Mounting through the glass is a cheap method IMO.

 

[Chrishazle]

Those Ford ones would not have been removeable though, so a bonding solution would remove the option to remove the panel!

 

[blade7]

Those Ford ones would not have been removeable though, so a bonding solution would remove the option to remove the panel!

The original 944 panel isn't bolted through, and neither were the early Saratoga panels...

 

[JamieMac]

Surely the domes could actually be flatter, which would improve aesthetics?

 

[944Scott]

Those Ford ones would not have been removeable though, so a bonding solution would remove the option to remove the panel!

No but there were plenty of pop up aftermarket sunroofs available that were also removable with similar fittings, I had them in several cars and never had any failures.

I agree it is Pilkingtons problem to resolve yet I have no qualms with a member of the group helping to resolve the matter however I do feel given the amount of inexcusable amount of time we have had had to wait already with a supposed modification to the fittings there should be some sort of recompense to acknowledge their failings.

 

[Mikebarry202]

How much are we talking for the 160 to be made?

I manage the design and manufacture department of ARA Ltd ([link=http://www.ara.co.uk/]http://www.ara.co.uk/[/link]), with 9 designers, 9 CNC machinists, 6 CNC machines AND an Additive Layer Manufacturing laser printer that is set up for Stainless Steel. This ALM machine is basically a large 3D metal printer......

Whilst I've bought one of these sunroofs I have had it shipped to the new owner of my S2 (not that he's received it yet) so therefore haven't seen first hand the quality of these mushrooms/fastenings. If anyone is happy to send me one preferably not broken, I can see about getting them scanned and "grown." Potential for them to be improved design was as well....

I agree that pilks should make good, but I doubt that will be as quick as is expected and entirely reasonable, so maybe this option gets us sorted and we can collectively push for a discount. Equally, they could foot the bill if I send them a remade designed and manufactured solution.

Let me know,

 

[944Fripp]

How much are we talking for the 160 to be made?

I manage the design and manufacture department of ARA Ltd ([link=http://www.ara.co.uk/]http://www.ara.co.uk/[/link]), with 9 designers, 9 CNC machinists, 6 CNC machines AND an Additive Layer Manufacturing laser printer that is set up for Stainless Steel. This ALM machine is basically a large 3D metal printer......

Whilst I've bought one of these sunroofs I have had it shipped to the new owner of my S2 (not that he's received it yet) so therefore haven't seen first hand the quality of these mushrooms/fastenings. If anyone is happy to send me one preferably not broken, I can see about getting them scanned and "grown." Potential for them to be improved design was as well....

I agree that pilks should make good, but I doubt that will be as quick as is expected and entirely reasonable, so maybe this option gets us sorted and we can collectively push for a discount. Equally, they could foot the bill if I send them a remade designed and manufactured solution.

Let me know,

Hi Mike, that's some impressive kit you've got access to! The form really is very simple though and the thread is a little difficult to get into to scan. A simple reverse engineer (using good old fashioned calipers) is far easier! I think the costs to sinter them would be huge compared to machining them (especially after support removal).

I'm going to wait to see what Pilkington come up with and in the mean time I'm still going to produce my own Ali ones. I agree that Pilkington need to sort this out and I have offered the services of my design company and my machining supplier to assist them so at least, with some guidance on torque requirements Nick has both options available to him.

I'm still determined to get my hands on a Saratoga and as I don't use the car everyday I am still happy to wait to get what I want. Call me a masochist but in a weird way I'm also enjoying the process!

 

[unavara]

How much are we talking for the 160 to be made?

I manage the design and manufacture department of ARA Ltd ([link=http://www.ara.co.uk/]http://www.ara.co.uk/[/link]), with 9 designers, 9 CNC machinists, 6 CNC machines AND an Additive Layer Manufacturing laser printer that is set up for Stainless Steel. This ALM machine is basically a large 3D metal printer......

Whilst I've bought one of these sunroofs I have had it shipped to the new owner of my S2 (not that he's received it yet) so therefore haven't seen first hand the quality of these mushrooms/fastenings. If anyone is happy to send me one preferably not broken, I can see about getting them scanned and "grown." Potential for them to be improved design was as well....

I agree that pilks should make good, but I doubt that will be as quick as is expected and entirely reasonable, so maybe this option gets us sorted and we can collectively push for a discount. Equally, they could foot the bill if I send them a remade designed and manufactured solution.

Let me know,

Hi Mike, that's some impressive kit you've got access to! The form really is very simple though and the thread is a little difficult to get into to scan. A simple reverse engineer (using good old fashioned calipers) is far easier! I think the costs to sinter them would be huge compared to machining them (especially after support removal).

I'm going to wait to see what Pilkington come up with and in the mean time I'm still going to produce my own Ali ones. I agree that Pilkington need to sort this out and I have offered the services of my design company and my machining supplier to assist them so at least, with some guidance on torque requirements Nick has both options available to him.

I'm still determined to get my hands on a Saratoga and as I don't use the car everyday I am still happy to wait to get what I want. Call me a masochist but in a weird way I'm also enjoying the process!

Masochist !

Antony

(Iris blue Sport)

 

[Ex Skyline]

What a bloody fiasco!! All this time and still no result !! I really feel for you guys, it seems to me you have all got the patience of Saints. I really don't know how I would of reacted if I had been involved in this one. So pleased I never took the plunge. Hope you all get a happy ending guys [].

 

[944Fripp]

It's amazing what things show up when jobs are done properly! The new mushrooms are a perfect fit but still not useable sadly. What they show is that the supplied mushrooms are not only extremely poor quality but that Pilkington have squeezed some glue into them before tightening them (to act as a spacer inside the thread) because if I tighten the new ones up the gap where the glass sits closes up too much, so much so that it would crack the glass. So if I loosen them then they stay a bit loose even when the cam is tightened because the thread is correct and not full of gunk (unlike the Pilkington ones) so moves too freely: not good for a car roof! So the best way to resolve this is to make the thread depth on the mushroom more shallow (not very strong) or increase the length of the central shaft on the cam as well as machine new mushrooms too make sure that the mushroom locks out on the shaft.

I have explained this all to Nick who is rather frantically trying to contact his colleagues in the US to get this all sorted! This is really poor from Pilkington, these are definitely not fit for purpose and I would definitely not want to put this on my car! I also wouldn't blame a single one of you for attempting to get your money back!

It is now widely known that I am a masochist so I plan on pressing on, especially at this rate as I'll be the only one!

 

[944Scott]

I fear if we have to wait for Pilkington useless (sorry I'm mean U.S.) to sort this debacle I reckon we will be waiting another 9 nine months, Pilkington UK needs to get a firm grip on this fast!