New Turbo owner - few niggles

[Ollie86]

Hi Chaps,

I've recently picked up a 944 Turbo and have a few questions about it please. It's done 89k, and is totally standard bar a Dansk exhaust. Any advice very much appreciated.

Idle
It idles when hot at around 800rpm, and doesn't shake or shudder at all. But, when puling away I can't help but feel it needs a few more revs to pull away cleanly than I'd like. This may be me not being used to the car, but I do have to currently set the revs higher than I'd have thought neccessary to pull away cleanly. It's a little "grumbly" otherwise, if that makes sense. I'm used to relatively modern cars, so this may just be me and actually par for the course. When coming up to a junction for example and dipping the clutch, the revs fall a little lower than 800 then very quickly pick themselves back up to a steady (albeit grumbly) tickover speed of circa 800rpm.

Jerkiness
When coming off the throttle, there's an occasional jerk. It's almost as if the front of the car dives down ever so slightly. At full throttle it's really quite pronounced. Could this be worn dampers not offering the resistance they should?

Steering Play
With the engine on tickover and the car at a standstill, if I rotate the steering wheel a inch or two both ways there seems to be a little play in something, and I can feel a "clunk" through the wheel. This can't be heard from outside the car, and feels as though it may either be the wheel itself or part of the rack?

Headlights
They're dreadful. Akin to having to tealights gaffer taped to the nosecone. Has anyone fitted an HID kit to a 944? Can they be improved upon easily without affecting the original look of the car?

Cold Gearbox
On a cold morning on a first start the gearbox is a little reluctant to engage 2nd. I've had this before on various cars and been assured it's fairly commonplace. One warm it shifts fine, is this normal?

Shifting
It feels a little, vague. I appreciate it'll never feel razor sharp due to the length and complexity of linkage, but is there something I can do to improve upon what's there? Are there bushes that are common culprits for wear?

Coolant Temp
When travelling along, the coolant temp gauge needle sits just on the first marker, solidly (looks to be a third of the way up the entire gauge, or thereabouts). But, when in traffic it seems to rise to halfway or just above then the fans kick in. Is this correct?

Power Delivery
It's a bit violent I'm not complaining too much about this, as I'd bet it'd be a hoot in the dry but it's caught me out a couple of times when it's slippy and very cold as it's come on boost. I've found myself rapidly switching to navigating progress through the side windows. Whilst this is all good fun (and it is!), is there something I can do to make the power delivery more progressive? I've come from a long background of M3's etc, with linear power which to be honest is much easier to predict (initially, at least).

Starting
It's got a relatively new battery on it, with a reciept for a starter motor a couple of years ago. But, it doesn't seem to turn over all that quicky, certainly slow compared to my old car (E36 M3). I've heard they never really throw them round even when in rude health. Is this correct?

Apologies for this monstrous post, and further apologies for the inevitable subsequent raft of questions in the coming weeks and months!

Cheers,
Oliver

 

[edh]

Hi Ollie

You've come to the right place - and most of those issues sound like fairly common 944 ones

- although you shouldn't get questions answered without pics! []

First of all - a key reference is Clark's Garage. You will find this a great resource

Idle / jerkiness - could be your TPS, which is very easy to adjust. Idle control valve can also cause a drop in idle - this is less easy to deal with as it's buried under the inlet manifold.

Steering - One problem I've never had - check out Clarks, I think a fair few people have swapped out steering joints / shaft

Headlights - fairly typical - you can try and clean / polish the glass, fit better bulbs, but the first thing to do is probably to make sure you're getting the full voltage at the lights - Oli (zagocop) has lots to say on this matter and I'm sure he'll be along soon [] i think there's something in the FAQ's

Gearbox issues are fairly normal - you can replace (or even just shim) the linkage on the top of the box (most likely cause), and also the bush at the base of the lever. Worth checking when it last had a transmission oil change.

Temperature sounds OK - maybe the gauge is reading low. Thermostats can get a bit weak & run a bit cold, so might be worth changing.

Starting - "they all do that sir"

Power delivery - part of this is just managing the boost, and being aware of how the car behaves. What's the year of the car? Does it have an LSD? Do you know what mods have been done to the boost control? All of these can have a big influence.

And one other thing - very important. When were the belts last done? Should be every 4 years - and what about the water pump?

 

[PSH]

Hi Ollie

Welcome to 944 ownership and the joy's of the turbo model.

ORIGINAL: Ollie86



Idle
It idles when hot at around 800rpm, and doesn't shake or shudder at all. But, when puling away I can't help but feel it needs a few more revs to pull away cleanly than I'd like. This may be me not being used to the car, but I do have to currently set the revs higher than I'd have thought neccessary to pull away cleanly. It's a little "grumbly" otherwise, if that makes sense. I'm used to relatively modern cars, so this may just be me and actually par for the course. When coming up to a junction for example and dipping the clutch, the revs fall a little lower than 800 then very quickly pick themselves back up to a steady (albeit grumbly) tickover speed of circa 800rpm.


A: These cars do need a little more revs than most to pull away, they are known for bogging down so I wouldn't worry that there's anything wrong here. Revs dipping below idle is trait of the 944T, I'm informed by those in the know who map these cars that the issue stems from the placement of the recirculating valve, it's too close to the AFM and thus when you lift off throttle it confuses the readings for the ECU. Clever custom mapping can help reduce this as can the fitting of a dump to atmosphere to replace the re-circulating type.

Jerkiness
When coming off the throttle, there's an occasional jerk. It's almost as if the front of the car dives down ever so slightly. At full throttle it's really quite pronounced. Could this be worn dampers not offering the resistance they should?

A: Can't say I've experienced anything like this other than what one would expect when lifting off from WOT, it may be worth checking your suspension as you suggest.

Steering Play
With the engine on tickover and the car at a standstill, if I rotate the steering wheel a inch or two both ways there seems to be a little play in something, and I can feel a "clunk" through the wheel. This can't be heard from outside the car, and feels as though it may either be the wheel itself or part of the rack?

A: this is usually due top the steering arm UJ's that fit between the lower column and steering rack, it's a common fault and a relative easy fix, while at it it's also worth checking the engine mount as it gets hot and can fail.

Headlights
They're dreadful. Akin to having to tealights gaffer taped to the nosecone. Has anyone fitted an HID kit to a 944? Can they be improved upon easily without affecting the original look of the car?

A: Normal... if you do a search on this forum you'll find that a number of owners have improved their lights with modern upgrades. Also many people forget to clean the headlights when washing the car due to being retracted, so this may not be helping the situation.

Cold Gearbox
On a cold morning on a first start the gearbox is a little reluctant to engage 2nd. I've had this before on various cars and been assured it's fairly commonplace. One warm it shifts fine, is this normal?

A: Normal, my box often clonked on changing up to 2nd when first driving off, it soon cleared once it warmed up a little

Shifting
It feels a little, vague. I appreciate it'll never feel razor sharp due to the length and complexity of linkage, but is there something I can do to improve upon what's there? Are there bushes that are common culprits for wear?

A: A common fault that is usually due to two things, the gear-shift lever lower joint wears out, also the rear linkage fitted to the Trans-axle wears too, again you should find reference on this forum as to how to fix this.

Coolant Temp
When travelling along, the coolant temp gauge needle sits just on the first marker, solidly (looks to be a third of the way up the entire gauge, or thereabouts). But, when in traffic it seems to rise to halfway or just above then the fans kick in. Is this correct?

A: Normal

Power Delivery
It's a bit violent I'm not complaining too much about this, as I'd bet it'd be a hoot in the dry but it's caught me out a couple of times when it's slippy and very cold as it's come on boost. I've found myself rapidly switching to navigating progress through the side windows. Whilst this is all good fun (and it is!), is there something I can do to make the power delivery more progressive? I've come from a long background of M3's etc, with linear power which to be honest is much easier to predict (initially, at least).

A: Normal, you have basically just described the difference between driving a turbo and a normally aspirated car, again custom mapping can help change this a little but why?... it's a turbo, enjoy the boost...

Starting
It's got a relatively new battery on it, with a reciept for a starter motor a couple of years ago. But, it doesn't seem to turn over all that quicky, certainly slow compared to my old car (E36 M3). I've heard they never really throw them round even when in rude health. Is this correct?

A: Normal

Apologies for this monstrous post, and further apologies for the inevitable subsequent raft of questions in the coming weeks and months!

Cheers,
Oliver

Regards

Pete

 

[Copperman05]

Hi Ollie, I dont have a turbo but some of the 944 related issues are similar between models.

Steering Play
With the engine on tickover and the car at a standstill, if I rotate the steering wheel a inch or two both ways there seems to be a little play in something, and I can feel a "clunk" through the wheel. This can't be heard from outside the car, and feels as though it may either be the wheel itself or part of the rack?

Play could be a number of things, clunk seems a bit more serious, I had some play in mine but after new castor mounts and a good geo its all but gone, although the steering rack has also been refurbished too.

Headlights
They're dreadful. Akin to having to tealights gaffer taped to the nosecone. Has anyone fitted an HID kit to a 944? Can they be improved upon easily without affecting the original look of the car?

My headlights were equally awful, many on here will recommend a new relay but the easiest fix is to fit the nightbreaker style bulbs, I went for the Phillips Extreme, now much brighter than they were, although they will never be as good as more modern units. HID kits are available at a cost but I always feel they look out of place on a classic car and a bit bling for my tastes.

Cold Gearbox
On a cold morning on a first start the gearbox is a little reluctant to engage 2nd. I've had this before on various cars and been assured it's fairly commonplace. One warm it shifts fine, is this normal?

Gear change can be stiff when cold, I would say this is pretty normal, mines the same especially between 1-2nd. You may find your linkages are old and a little tired. Same goes for the vagueness, I'm sure these cars were a lot tighter new but after 25+ years and several tens of thousands of miles things are getting pretty worn.

Coolant Temp
When travelling along, the coolant temp gauge needle sits just on the first marker, solidly (looks to be a third of the way up the entire gauge, or thereabouts). But, when in traffic it seems to rise to halfway or just above then the fans kick in. Is this correct?

Pretty normal, I've had mine across mountains and a couple of track days and I never really see the needle go further than you have just mentioned, I think the cooling systems on these cars are a little over engineered, but very effective!

Power Delivery
It's a bit violent I'm not complaining too much about this, as I'd bet it'd be a hoot in the dry but it's caught me out a couple of times when it's slippy and very cold as it's come on boost. I've found myself rapidly switching to navigating progress through the side windows. Whilst this is all good fun (and it is!), is there something I can do to make the power delivery more progressive? I've come from a long background of M3's etc, with linear power which to be honest is much easier to predict (initially, at least).

I think its the nature of the beast! I'm sure there will be a few turbo owners on soon that can tell you how this can be improved upon, but ultimately the turbo cars are not as progressive as the S2's when it comes to power delivery, some see this as an advantage others prefer the more linear delivery of a n/a engine.

I don't think any of what you have posted is a major concern, welcome to 944 ownership! I see it as a long term restoration project, one year you do the gear linkages, the next the steering play, adding some decent bulbs would be my first point of call.


Edd

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

Power Delivery
It's a bit violent I'm not complaining too much about this, as I'd bet it'd be a hoot in the dry but it's caught me out a couple of times when it's slippy and very cold as it's come on boost. I've found myself rapidly switching to navigating progress through the side windows. Whilst this is all good fun (and it is!), is there something I can do to make the power delivery more progressive? I've come from a long background of M3's etc, with linear power which to be honest is much easier to predict (initially, at least).

I think its the nature of the beast! I'm sure there will be a few turbo owners on soon that can tell you how this can be improved upon, but ultimately the turbo cars are not as progressive as the S2's when it comes to power delivery, some see this as an advantage others prefer the more linear delivery of a n/a engine.

Just as Edd said - should have bought an S2! []

(Ollie, this is an in-joke on this forum. Turbo owners think their cars are superior whereas S2 owners know they have the better cars! The advice the chaps have given to date is spot on. All the best with your new waggon and do post some piccies up soon. And when you want to move on to a superior model then we can give you advice on that as well! [])


Oli.

 

[Ollie86]

Chaps,

Thanks very much for all the replies, much appreciated.

Pleased and somewhat relieved to hear that the little issues all sound fairly inconsequential and typical for a 944. Despite feeling very solid and well built it does feel quite old, but in a rather charming way.

I'll make a list of little bits and bobs as you suggest and slowly work through them I think. First port of call will be to address the play in the UJ for the steering I think, as that's quite unpleasant.

The belts, water pump and turbo were replaced 10,000 miles ago thankfully, so I don't need to worry about those for sometime yet.

I will get some pictures up I promise, I'd rather have some of my own to show than the ones from the advert (but I think it's still live on PH, it's the Guards red 86 turbo with 89K on it).

Cheers for the heads up on the in house joke, always good to know these things. [] I specifically wanted a Turbo though, part of me felt I missed the heady turbo days of the 80's and I needed to get a slice of the action.

Oliver

 

[Ollie86]

One further thought I had on the way the car drove was that the biting point of the clutch felt quite low, could this indicate a worn friction plate? Out of 2 enormous folders of reciepts and history with the car I don't have record of a clutch if I remember correctly.

Is this an indication it's getting a little tired? Or another (spoken by Porsche technician) "They all do that, Sir".

 

[Copperman05]

The belts, water pump and turbo were replaced 10,000 miles ago thankfully, so I don't need to worry about those for sometime

Also depends on when belts were last done, max 4 years is the general rule, anything more and your risking failure.


Edd

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Ollie86

One further thought I had on the way the car drove was that the biting point of the clutch felt quite low, could this indicate a worn friction plate? Out of 2 enormous folders of reciepts and history with the car I don't have record of a clutch if I remember correctly.

Is this an indication it's getting a little tired? Or another (spoken by Porsche technician) "They all do that, Sir".

Worn clutches do have particular symptoms, but slipping isn't usually the first one they display. Do a search on here for clutches and you'll find more wisdom than you ever possibly need on the topic, but be warned that they are VERY expensive to have changed. (The parts are around the £500 mark and it's a big 'ol job to do.)


Oli.

 

[Ollie86]

Thanks a lot chaps.

Lots of reading to do then.

Belts, pump etc were all renewed late 2011 so all's well there.

 

[TTM]

Welcome and congrats with your purchase.

Since the height of the biting point can be adjusted on the clutch pedal, I would not conclude anything from how it feels.
The position of the slave cylinder piston will tell you the wear of the clutch disc.

http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/clutch-03.htm

 

[edh]

Link to car

Looks very tidy

Have you tried the car on the teledials? I'm assuming these are the early deep dish type (using pre-ABS hubs). They should be much lighter than the Cup 1 replicas, and look more in keeping with an '86 car. You also have the option of Fuchs (if you can find them..)

I see that the car has an LSD -pretty rare for an early one. I'm surprised that it is spinning up the rears so easily, particularly as it looks like it 's on standard boost control.

 

[Ollie86]

ORIGINAL: TTM

Welcome and congrats with your purchase.

Since the height of the biting point can be adjusted on the clutch pedal, I would not conclude anything from how it feels.
The position of the slave cylinder piston will tell you the wear of the clutch disc.

http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/clutch-03.htm

That's excellent news, thank you. I shall go and look up how to adjust the bite point now.

RE the original wheels, I didn't take these off the previous owner. I'm not a fan of them at all personally.

In fairness to it spinning the rears up, it's been pretty cold and very slippy.

 

[Alpine]

on the gearchange, 1st to 2nd is known to be sticky because of the box being in the rear. Pausing in neutral for a second when coming out of first helps. Worth changing the gearbox oil, helped a great deal on mine.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Ollie86

RE the original wheels, I didn't take these off the previous owner. I'm not a fan of them at all personally.

Give it time... []

They are quite sought after as well

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: edh

ORIGINAL: Ollie86

RE the original wheels, I didn't take these off the previous owner. I'm not a fan of them at all personally.

Give it time... []

They are quite sought after as well

I agree with Ed, if you can still get the tele-dials, get them, the deep dish versions from the early car IMHO are the best looking wheels for the early offset variant.
Congrats on your car, the 85/86 944T will be a true classic one day and command more money.. again, IMHO...

Pete

 

[Hairyarse]

Welcome Ollie. I saw your Turbo at the Retro Cars meet at Santa Pod in July - looked very tidy [8D]

 

[George Elliott]

I agree with Ed, if you can still get the tele-dials, get them, the deep dish versions from the early car IMHO are the best looking wheels for the early offset variant.
Congrats on your car, the 85/86 944T will be a true classic one day and command more money.. again, IMHO...

Pete

I agree with Edd and Pete, fling those lumps of lead and feel the delicacy of the early turbo teledial wheels.
Lovely example by the way Ollie
Good luck with it.
George
944t

 

[Ollie86]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes and kind comments about the car chaps, much appreciated.

I noticed tonight that 4 of my wheel nuts are rounded off, was able to remove them in the end without damaging anything but they're destined for the bin. They feel quite flimsy, I assume they're alloy? Is there a preferred source for replacements other than Porsche?

 

[PSH]

Personally Ollie I'd get OEM parts here, I don't believe that the cost is very much. You may have to use more force than you would expect in undoing 944 wheel nuts, especially ones that are rounded off. Just as a heads up the torque for these is around 130 nm or 96 ft/lbs.

Regards

Pete