New Suspension, KW-V3?

[ronald smith]

Oli- Spot on!
Edd- Your very welcome.
Jon- How very rude- its the fastest colour as well Dove/Baltic Blue.
Should be a good meet up.
Cheers
Ron

 

[Big Dave]

This will most probably be a contravertial reply. And one you might not want to hear.
Personally ,,, if your just using the car for long jaunts + general driving then,,,, stick with new original kit, BUT add a pair of 968 M030 anti roll bars , complete with new bushings throughout.
Itd save you money + have a comfy car on the long runs your likely to do...

ronald. I still stick to my re-indexing.[][][], its needed....

 

[JamesBall]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

I tested a 1998 S2 with standard, old bushes etc but KWv3s on (it is RPM's test mule) last week.

Ollie offered to let me have a go in the Red Shed when I picked my car up a couple of weeks ago. Having just melted my credit card I declined; I really, really don't want to know if I would want to go down this route. []

Speaking of that test car, I hope they do restore it. It's got great history, but needs a load of bodywork issues sorting. It was good to compare it with the turbo they've got in for breaking, as it's not structural corrosion. The turbo looked much better from a distance, yet the shell was structurally beyond repair. When you compare the difference in purchase price the S2 was an absolute bargain if it lasts even a year.

Darren and Olly both said it was beyond economic repair and the Gold 944/968 has been the nail in the coffin of them throwing good money doing up these cars apparently. It is a shame because the red one did drive very nicely (although I still can't really get on with S2's - sorry)

 

[Hilux]

What percentage of my time will I track compared to daily use on the road? Very little, so you have to compromise and draw the line somewhere.

Exactly - KWV3 are a fantastic compromise and superb on the road. You dont have to track it to see the benefits.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty


Why waste your money based on the feedback from a few people on the internet?

As opposed to not going down the KW route based on the opinion of one person on this forum ? [8|]

 

[sawood12]

KW is in a different league to the stock suspension. that is just the simple fact of the matter. It is stiffer, controls body roll better and squat and dive under braking and acceleration. Cars these days run harder suspension than they used to - harder suspension makes a car handle better due to better body control - but too hard and handling is worse as the suspension is not compliant enough to maintain tyre contact on the road and hence grip. Other stiffer suspension systems will give you better body control and hence better handling, but will have reduced grip on bumpy and uneven roads (so not an issue on smooth tracks). KW gives you best of both worlds as it can change the damping rate to suit the surface. There is no way on earth a 944 on standard refreshed bushings and suspension will be anywhere near as good as a KW equipped car.

So your koni's are £700 - but what is the installation costs once you've replaced bushes, installed the shockers, had a full go setup? at least double that easily.

My KW installation cost me £3k but that included replacement of the fuel lines, full removal of the rear axel and re-indexing of the TB's, uprating the TB's to M030, some new bushes, some replacement parts that are difficult to access with the axel in situ and a few other bits and bobs I can't remember right now. Ultimately your Koni's are not that much cheaper than KW's. The KW kit is £1300 (or was when I got it) but that is the full coil over setup - your classic Koni's are only £600 cheaper but all you are getting is out-dated, old technology shockers only - not even springs - how soft are your 20yr old springs - installing fresh shock absorbers to old soft uneven springs will never get you the best results.

A full state of the art fast road suspension set up for the price of a mid-range mountain bike a rip off? Not really, not in real terms. You get what you pay for - you can do it cheaper, but will not get the same results - that is just a fact wether you believe it or not.

I chose the KW and was delighted with the results. They brought the feel of the car bang upto date compared with modern high performance sports cars. I thoroughly recommend them.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: sawood12
So your koni's are £700 - but what is the installation costs once you've replaced bushes, installed the shockers, had a full go setup? at least double that easily.

And therein, I think, lies the nub of it. If you can get the KW's for £1300 including fitting, they will be comparably priced to the Koni's if you need to pay for fitting as well.

If you do your own spannering, you can buy the Koni's for £700 and fit 'em yourself. Total cost? £700.

Sc0tty, the technology of the KW's is different - and superior - to the Koni technology. They are adjustable in more ways, and have the additional valving. They are, on paper at least, superior. And the various reviews support this. The question is how much superior, and whether that superiority is necessary for most driving conditions. And whether it is worth the extra cost, if you are into DIY fitting (as above).


Oli.

 

[333pg333]

You're right Scotty, 3k is cheap for all that work and the wonderful KWs.
So what if it's X % of the value of your cars? Your cars are hugely undervalued. I'm not sure what the average weekly wage is in the UK but I think it's pretty similar to the figure in Australia. So lets say 700-900 per week? Or am I way off target? Even if it's 500 per week. You guys can buy a pretty good turbo for what, 4-5k. So with 10 weeks wages you have a Porsche turbo (all other expenses aside for this hypothetical). In Australia we have to pay $15k for a pretty clapped out version and $25-$30k for a good one. So spending $3k on all the parts/work that Scott had done is a bargain in my eyes. Especially to improve the driving experience to the level that the KWs provide. For us down here you'd be minimum $5k for all that. It seems that money must be really tight in the UK because every time I see someone on this forum talking about spending a few grand on some mods for their 944/968s there seems to be a collective tut tutting from many in the gallery....many of them seem to be S2 owners too for some reason....[]

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty

THREEE GRAND ???!!!! and you then sold your 944 for a Ford MPV????!!!!! You guys have clearly lost the plot.

[/quote]

ScOtty - On the contrary - it is you who doesn't get it. You never had the plot to lose. At least I drove my car when I had it and didn't spend my time cleaning it and dreaming of driving it. And if you re-read my thread the KW installation didn't cost £3k, there was alot of other work done at the same time - maybe a good £700 worth - my point was that the KW is not that much more than the alternatives (comparing apples with apples of course, not just shock replacement). I got plenty of miles in the 944 with the KW before selling it. Clearly my situation changed and I had to make a difficult choice - I have alot of things going on in my life which demand time and money and something had to give when the kids came, unfortunately it was the 944 or something else. I never got my money back - not a penny - but I never expected to - i'm realistic about these things. These are cars and cars are money pits, not investments. The cost of ownership of my 944 over the time I had it was still alot less than buying something newer and it was alot more fun. I'm realistic to know that these cars cost money to own and run and you wont see your money back, and I was always prepared to spend whatever it took to do whatever job I did right. There is no point in owning the car and not enjoying it.

I maintain that £3k is not alot to lavish on a hobby. I know some people who have boats, planes, big cameras, other cars, go diving and many other hobbies that spend around that every year. I know you Scot's are notoriously thrifty (i'm half Scottish myself so know from first hand) so I wouldn't necessarily expect you to agree with me.

By the way, though I bought the SMax as a practical family tool i've been pretty impressed. It is a pretty capable machine when the kids and the wife are not on board - I know for a fact it can embarrass a 200ish bhp modern hot hatch - My mate in his 225bhp Seat Leon Cupra R struggled to keep up when we had a short blast a few weeks ago along a dual carriageway interspersed with some roundabouts. i'm pretty sure my SMax could give a stock S2 a run for its money round a track (ducks for cover!), and the one with the engine out of the Focus RS would probably give one a good hiding. And you can get KWv3's for an SMax - I have considered them, but somehow didn't feel right!

 

[Hilux]

Edd, I reckon KW is a total rip off.

Its easy to reckon - how do you know?

Have you driven a car with KW - its why I went for it over refurbed Mo30 - its still chalk and cheese - a very very noticeable difference.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

Edd, I reckon KW is a total rip off.

Its easy to reckon - how do you know?

Have you driven a car with KW - its why I went for it over refurbed Mo30 - its still chalk and cheese - a very very noticeable difference.

Exactly - my cars refurbed Mo30 968 suspension was stone age in capability compared with the KW's she now rides on.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: 333pg333

You're right Scotty, 3k is cheap for all that work and the wonderful KWs.
So what if it's X % of the value of your cars? Your cars are hugely undervalued. I'm not sure what the average weekly wage is in the UK but I think it's pretty similar to the figure in Australia. So lets say 700-900 per week? Or am I way off target? Even if it's 500 per week. You guys can buy a pretty good turbo for what, 4-5k. So with 10 weeks wages you have a Porsche turbo (all other expenses aside for this hypothetical). In Australia we have to pay $15k for a pretty clapped out version and $25-$30k for a good one. So spending $3k on all the parts/work that Scott had done is a bargain in my eyes. Especially to improve the driving experience to the level that the KWs provide. For us down here you'd be minimum $5k for all that. It seems that money must be really tight in the UK because every time I see someone on this forum talking about spending a few grand on some mods for their 944/968s there seems to be a collective tut tutting from many in the gallery....many of them seem to be S2 owners too for some reason....[]

I think this is very relevant. The cheapness of 944's in the UK does distort peoples perceptions of them and the amount of money that can be spent either upgrading or restoring them. On continental europe they are or certainly were far more valued and far less cheap, let alone elsewhere in the world too. If 944 Turbos were making £15-£20k as their Beetle contemporaries are, then I suspect there would be rather less tutting going on when someone spent £1800 on an exceptional suspension upgrade.

 

[Diver944]

Coming back on topic and in an effort to help Copperman.........

I've driven a lot of the options available (on my own cars and other peoples) and have jotted down a few notes.

My S2 had new factory Sachs shocks all round and it transformed the car into a tighter ride but with a lot more comfort than the 150k mile units they replaced

My Turbo had its M030 shocks rebuilt and once again it was improved in agility as well as comfort. These shocks are a lot stiffer than S2 units and do not absorb bumps on poor surfaces but are great on smooth tracks with less lean and pitching under braking/acceleration

Dave Malings Turbo (now Jon Traslers) had Leda Coilovers all round and when set to full stiff was excruciating on the road, very crashy and hardly any damping, but on a circuit it was fantastic - much better than M030 with very little lean or pitching

Fen and MarkKs Turbo with KWv3 was much firmer than M030 but less firm than the Leda. However it betters them all in every respect - nicely damped for the road, very comfortable over bumps yet much less roll than any of them. On a smooth track it really is the best compromise until you get to out and out race suspension. At Silverstone in Fens car he could really attack the sharp sawtooth kerbs at Abbey, yet my M030 equipped car would be thrown all over the place on the same kerbs - an excellent demonstration of the KWv3 high speed bypass valve []

MarkKs race car on Gaz remote reservoirs is the firmest, stiffest 944 I've driven on the road and I have to say I was surprised how it coped with road surfaces. It was more damped than the Leda and the M030 but obviously nowhere near as comfortable as the KWv3 and the standard Sachs. On track it is simply the sharpest, stiffest, best handling 944 I have been in to date (As you would expect for full on race suspension)

Copperman if you intend to do only a few track days then I fully recommend you replace yours with stock Sachs struts and new rubber bushes all round. You won't compromise your road comfort yet it will still handle a country mile better than your old worn out units. If you want a slight upgrade in stiffness go for the Koni inserts as Oli has already illustrated

 

[sawood12]

Apologies then Scotty - clearly I was making assumptions from your login name!

 

[barks944]

My car has KWV3, but I can't remember any more what its like to drive .

 

[Big Dave]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Coming back on topic and in an effort to help Copperman.........

I've driven a lot of the options available (on my own cars and other peoples) and have jotted down a few notes.

My S2 had new factory Sachs shocks all round and it transformed the car into a tighter ride but with a lot more comfort than the 150k mile units they replaced

My Turbo had its M030 shocks rebuilt and once again it was improved in agility as well as comfort. These shocks are a lot stiffer than S2 units and do not absorb bumps on poor surfaces but are great on smooth tracks with less lean and pitching under braking/acceleration

Dave Malings Turbo (now Jon Traslers) had Leda Coilovers all round and when set to full stiff was excruciating on the road, very crashy and hardly any damping, but on a circuit it was fantastic - much better than M030 with very little lean or pitching

Fen and MarkKs Turbo with KWv3 was much firmer than M030 but less firm than the Leda. However it betters them all in every respect - nicely damped for the road, very comfortable over bumps yet much less roll than any of them. On a smooth track it really is the best compromise until you get to out and out race suspension. At Silverstone in Fens car he could really attack the sharp sawtooth kerbs at Abbey, yet my M030 equipped car would be thrown all over the place on the same kerbs - an excellent demonstration of the KWv3 high speed bypass valve []

MarkKs race car on Gaz remote reservoirs is the firmest, stiffest 944 I've driven on the road and I have to say I was surprised how it coped with road surfaces. It was more damped than the Leda and the M030 but obviously nowhere near as comfortable as the KWv3 and the standard Sachs. On track it is simply the sharpest, stiffest, best handling 944 I have been in to date (As you would expect for full on race suspension)

Copperman if you intend to do only a few track days then I fully recommend you replace yours with stock Sachs struts and new rubber bushes all round. You won't compromise your road comfort yet it will still handle a country mile better than your old worn out units. If you want a slight upgrade in stiffness go for the Koni inserts as Oli has already illustrated

Like i said,,,, stick to standard ,BUT add a set of 968 M030 anti roll bars,aswell...
PS i too have owned and driven many [miles on road + track], similar cars to pauls post above,ranging from standard cars, to M030 equiped cars to KW fitted cars to full on PCGB race cars.+ this is why i said what i said.
If you want some unbiased opinions , they dont come much clearer than these.... No hearsay or internet experts... Just plain old hands on steering wheel experience.[][][][][]

 

[simkin911]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty


And sawood, I take offence at you thinking I am Scottish [:'(][][][:'(][:'(] I am 100% English I'll have you know, and I have no interest in even going to jockland, as we get enough crap weather here in South !!

Thank God. []

 

[Copperman05]

Thanks for your comments guys, def some things to consider. Obviously I am going to have a ride in a couple of cars to see how they feel and what differences there are. I have experienced Oli's S2 and his koni's and they were just a bit stiffer than stock.

I hear what your saying about keeping standard shocks if all I'm doing is driving long distances, etc. But its also the driving experience I'm after and I love driving in the hills, mountains, alps, etc. The long journey is just to get there! Perhaps the KW's would be suitable in this regard also.

If the cost was just £1300 or so I think the KW's would be a dead cert, but if doing them properly, inc re-indexing, new bushes, and a full geo, etc. The whole lot is looking more like £2600 + VAT! (Yes I've asked).

Having said that I'm not put off by the fact that this is close to half the value of the car as this is what makes us enthusiasts, there is no reason to our madness sometimes! If the performance is significantly improved (If driving for drivings sake is what you do, rather than travel from a to b) then it could be worthwhile.

I have to think about this one...

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: Big Dave

Like i said,,,, stick to standard ,BUT add a set of 968 M030 anti roll bars,aswell...

Can you tell me why this is the best choice? Is it based mainly on price? How would it compare to the kw's set up to fast road/track? How do the stock shock compare to the kw's when the car is loaded up (2 weeks holiday gear), etc. Could the kw's not be set up to cope with this?

Edd

 

[sawood12]

Where I got to is that the thing about stock suspension is that it will never feel like a modern car. You drive a Boxster or any modern sports car or hot hatch and modern cars have a certain feel about them, and I wanted that feel for my 944. KW gives you that. It is expensive, but the way I looked at my car was that it was a hobby and like I have said before, I know plenty of people who would spend that much or more on mountain bikes that would last maybe 2 - 3 years before they are trashed. By this comparison Porsche running costs are cheaper than running a half decent mountain bike.

My plan with my car was to modernise it and change it into some form of my interpretation of what a modern 944 might be. In one swoop the KW brought the car bang upto date in terms of the feel and behaviour of the handling. To me it feels very much like a Boxster to drive - which is about as high praise as you can get considering the age of the car.

ORIGINAL: barks944

My car has KWV3, but I can't remember any more what its like to drive .

Tom - I can, and you will have a treat waiting for you.