Modified 944 turbo - taking in too much hot air?

[TTM]

Ok.

My opinion on the vents in the badge panel is that they are useless.

The problem you have here is that you would have to make a hole in the bumper where the reg plate is in order to replicate the 944T layout.

I recently swapped a 3L turbo engine into the 924S of a friend and we are exposed to the same problem, and as the car is in Germany we cannot really play with the location of the reg plate. The car being a 924S it's got a wide grill below the front bumper, and we are most likely going to fit a large rectangular intercooler in front of the radiator.
If you can put the reg plate elsewhere, or even better use sticker lettering (which is something you may get tortured then killed for in Germany), then you should be able to build something close to the 944T layout.

In the meantime please move the cone filter behind the offside headlight, as mentioned earlier. IC efficiency must be close to miserable at the moment, meaning the cone filter just behind it may soak heat pretty badly.

 

[944 man]

Mick, when you said that the front was "mock 924 Carrera GT" Id presumed that you had a GRP 937 front fitted. I see from the picture that it actually has the OEM 944 front bumper and PU fitted (which look like the 937 panel but are in two separate pieces). Hopefully my comment makes more sense now.

 

[Eldavo]

Speak to Richard at ClubAutoSport about one of their 951-style GRP front bumpers to fit a N/A car.

This is where EMC source their parts so you'll save about 20% buying direct.

The wings, badge panel and headlight covers are different on a Turbo/S2 so a genuine Turbo/S2 bumper won't fit onto the front of your car. ClubAutoSport make a replica style that fits onto the front of a N/A car without modification - probably a bit of fettling though!

You can then buy the scoops that 944Man has highlighted, the bumper vent is in a high pressure area whereas the badge panel vents aren't - hence the crappy cooling you're experiencing.

You'll need a set of Turbo/S2 front indicators which aren't too expensive but if you want the fogs/high beam lights they're very expensive. Personally I wouldn't bother with them; buy some cheap 2mm carbon fibre panels from "CarbonMods" on eBay and cut them to fit in the fog light holes, you can then cut holes in them and run brake cooling ducting too - double bonus!

 

[944 man]

Some panels come from CAS but also from Simon at Pro9. Id forego the saving though because its the expertise that youre buying rather than the panel.

 

[nick_968]

This one is very simple the factory intercooler is very thick and a dense core. In order for it to work at all fresh air needs to be forced through the core. The duct opening should be about 30% of the area of the face of the core and fit tightly around the core. This is so the air can neither turn round or go around the edges as it will always take the path of least resistance. What you have at the moment is an inter heater and it does show a lack of understanding about the importance of charge cooling in a high power turbo install. As others have suggested you have an easy fix by fitting the factory duct and front panel.

 

[CarreraRSR]

ORIGINAL: Masher


For interest, the IC positioning on my car looks like the ones in edh's first picture but with the air coming straight through the slots in the badge panel rather than being brought in below and funnelled up onto the inter cooler. Personally, I am wondering if the slots in the badge panel and the bonnet scoop are between them trapping warm air rather than allowing it to flow cold in the front and warm out the back. Having said that, Porsche thought this a good idea for the 924GT...

Whilst the Carrera GT had the four badge panel vents this fed cold air to the engine bay and not a front mounted IC. The bonnet scoop fed cold air to a top mounted IC.

Do you also have an engine tray fitted? This improves cooling not restricting it.

 

[Masher]

Thanks guys. A couple of decent pics and all becomes crystal clear... sorry it took me so long to realise!

I'll contact EMC and see where we go.

If you spot any other issues with my car please keep quiet since this will eat up any available budget []

Thanks again,
Mick

 

[T3rra]

If bugget is tight, I would move the front number plate, and create an opening in the bumper. 2nd bumper is pretty cheap, try it 1st then do the final plan on your current bumper, all goes wrong you can cover it up with the number plate

 

[944Scott]

Sorry I meant to put these up earlier in the post

 

[944Turbo]

You could also consider a different badge panel something like http://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944S5HEADER.html where it sticks out more into the airflow with a suitable duct inside. No experience of them in practice though - I couldn't take the look!

What I tried to post yesterday.

The air is taken in through the filter and makes its way to the turbo, the turbo compresses the air which generates heat the hot air then passes through the intercooler and into the intake manifold. Cold dense air is good for power.

The factory turbo front has an opening that enters a fairly well sealed duct (I taped mine to improve it) the duct opens up onto the front face of the intercooler so the air will be slowed which will allow it more time to pass through the IC and remove some of the heat. If the duct is not in place then the air will mostly bypass the IC.

I do not recall anyone who sells a J-pipe replacement on its own - Guru used to do one as part of a kit, Vitisse do one as part of the MAF kit, Lindsey do one as part of a tuning kit, speedforce racing do one as part of a kit. One or more of these suppliers may sell you one (not guru they no longer exist).

It is basically a bent pipe, usually with a couple of take offs - one for the dump valve and one for the vacuum system so it may be possible to get one fabricated. I have seen them on rennlist made out of various bits of plastic drain pipe for experimental purposes, you don't want any bits to fall off though they will destroy the turbo.

A front mount intercooler (in front of the radiator) will get a nice flow of cool air but introduces plumbing issues and can cause the coolant temperature to be higher as the radiator will have less airflow and pre warmed air passing through.

Tony


edited to add
alternative badge panel
http://www.deutschnine.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=porsche-transaxle&Product_Code=D9-944II951S2-VBP&Category_Code=porsche-transaxle-944-turbo-s2-aero-dynamics

but this one looks no better than the 924 vents and they are probably designed to fit the turbo front anyway.

and also forgot that I had written - somewhere I have a digital template for a piece that allows you to blank off the filter to create a cold box - it orignally came from NZ951 on rennlist many years ago - something I fancied doing but never got around too.

 

[944Turbo]

this is the intake partion thread I was thinking of

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/944-turbo-and-turbo-s-forum/189363-my-first-fibreglass-effort-intake-partition-now-with-upgrades.html

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

This one is very simple the factory intercooler is very thick and a dense core. In order for it to work at all fresh air needs to be forced through the core. The duct opening should be about 30% of the area of the face of the core and fit tightly around the core. This is so the air can neither turn round or go around the edges as it will always take the path of least resistance. What you have at the moment is an inter heater and it does show a lack of understanding about the importance of charge cooling in a high power turbo install. As others have suggested you have an easy fix by fitting the factory duct and front panel.

Nick has a lot of direct experience with this problem. His 3.0L Turbo in a 968 body experienced cooling issues due to the the initial intercooler and ducting design. Now that he has sorted them out, his car reliably and repeatedly makes 400bhp all day long.

When I had a 3.2L Turbo it could run all day long at 350bhp on the Dyno, but as soon as the boost was turned up to 400bhp it would make 2-3 runs and then the power dropped off a cliff due to the heat soak. Good intercooling and ducting is extremely important when you get to these higher levels of power.

I also don't think the bonnet scoop is helping things at all, try blanking it off and see if it helps?

 

[Masher]

Again, very much appreciate all the help and advice. I also appreciate the explanations regarding what things do and why (944Turbo explaining the turbo : intercooler interaction is a good example). Gaining an education regarding the cars you own is very much part of the fun and turbos have always been a bit of mystery to me.

Initial contact with ECM suggests the path you have set me on makes sense to them too. A turbo style front bumper with ducting will be a big help and either move the air filter or put it in a box and pipe air to it from the front of the car (made me consider using the fog light openings but that is just an off-the-cuff thought). Ref the bonnet scoop, they think this is no issue for air flow or cooling except that it is acting like a huge air brake!

Looks like I will certainly need to take action so will return to the topic with updates. I think new suspension is on hold until I have wrestled this to the ground but I'll get there eventually []

Thanks again,
Mick

 

[944 man]

Kevin will love the colour.

 

[944 man]

Youre missing a heat shield too by the looks of it, which protects the master cylinder from the heat from the turbocharger.

 

[Masher]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Youre missing a heat shield too by the looks of it, which protects the master cylinder from the heat from the turbocharger.

I told you... No more problems []

Cheers
Mick

 

[Masher]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Kevin will love the colour.

And I quote "you mean the blue one? Oh my giddy aunt"

Not sure that was loving it! Very helpful though. Awaiting a quote.
Mick

 

[944 man]

Its only a piece of aluminium. With the sight of an original you should be able to fabricate one for an extremely modest cost.

With regards to colour, Kevin has adopted Riviera Blue as his company colours, so I presumed that yours will go down well.

 

[Masher]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Its only a piece of aluminium. With the sight of an original you should be able to fabricate one for an extremely modest cost.

With regards to colour, Kevin has adopted Riviera Blue as his company colours, so I presumed that yours will go down well.

Heat shield added to the list. Thanks.

Kevin did mention they had adopted that colour so I imagine his reaction might have been to the bodywork alterations.

If I look to change the bumper and get rid of the bonnet scoop there is almost an argument for getting a whole GRP front end.Heaven knows what that costs but it might ensure a good fit (assuming the same manufacturer made them all) and that might save time. I will also look into the cost of wrapping the new parts vs painting. Wrapping should not stone chip so badly and will flex with the GRP better than paint. Not a job I thought I'd be doing when I bought the car!

Cheers
Mick.

 

[T3rra]

Iv just sold my turbo front end, which was black, could off just ran black badge pannle and black roof?

Not sure how the lights would look fit wise 2 turbo badge pannle.

Got a black bonnet if you want it, £30