How much.....

[Ex Skyline]

....would it cost to change a gearbox input seal? There is a slight leak on mine. I just had an "off the cuff" quote and I nearly fell through the fcuking floor!! []. Would someone please tell me the firm concerned are having a laugh!!

 

[T3rra]

The seal about £8/12 requires drive shaft removed, gear box oil drained and re filled. MIT as well do both sides. I didn't mean when I done my wheel bearings. But only did the one side as I didn't relise I would need 2 remove both ends off both drive shafts.

Which side is it? U don't need 2 remove exhulst but u will need 2 remove the oil cooler.

2/3 hours 2 do both sides. + Seal x2 and gear box oil

How much was u quoted ?

 

[JamesO]

Input seal means dropping the box, I think IIRC Northways gave me a ball park figure of £100 + the seal about 4 years ago.

Output seals are much easier.

Changed the box in the end as it was a bit ropey.

 

[Ex Skyline]

Hi guys,sorry for my absense. I was quoted £660.00 by you know who (I always use them but, may not in future)! and,sorry once more for my original mistake,it is the Output shaft seal that needs replacing. I rang Mid Sussex Porsche and they reckoned about 2 hours plus parts! How much dosh have i just chucked at this car unnessesarily? I'm defo' going to get quotes for ALL works to my car from now on and NOT just put my trust in so-and-so being a nice, honest guy!

 

[944 man]

I was quoted the cost of the seals and about half an hours labour whilst it was up on the ramp - subject to everything coming undone, which it did. Turbos frequntly tighten themselves up, so it can take longer in some cases.

 

[JamesO]

Maybe some confusion. £660 sounds more like a price for the rear main seal, I.E between engine and torque tube. Gearbox input seal is between the gearbox and torque tube.
Gearbox output seals x2 between gearbox and drive shafts.

 

[Ex Skyline]

It must be JMG that's confused. It is the Gearbox Output Seal that need's replacing. Not the main seal between Engine and Gearbox.

 

[JamesO]

A mis-comunication there would result in a huge difference in price.

 

[Ex Skyline]

yeah, cheers James. I will get back to them tomorrow morning.[]

 

[Indi9xx]

Transparency.

All quotes for all jobs are "no more than", or in other words, worst case scenario.

Price given is..

Upto 2 hours to get the driveshafts off, gear linkage disconnected, coupling undone and slid back, gearbox mounts and fange undone and transmission removed

Upto 0.75 (3/4) of an hour to remove the old seal, clean up and check the seal seating/input shaft, clean inside the transmission bell housing, fit new seal

Upto 2 hours to get the transmission back in, coupling re hooked up, bell housing re-bolted, gearbox mounts bolted upto the crossmember.

A fixed price transmission fluid replacement (listed on the estimate once, but it is drained before the trans is dropped and refilled after it is installed.

One input shaft oil seal at £10.24

Total estimated price is £394.47 plus vat including all this.

However, this price is automatically generated estimate with a margin for seized bolts (in particular the input shaft coupling can be a complete swine sometimes) all depending on when the entire transmission was removed, it is also a price that assumes that the drive-shaft bolts will be a swine also to remove. However, checking the history on this car, the drive-shafts were off a few months ago, so they should be good.

Best case scenario would be about £120 less than the estimated price, if we do not encounter problems, which would be 2 hours less labour, or in other words, 1 hour out, 1 hour back in, fluid replacement, new seal etc. However, that would be a bit optimistic from an estimating point of view.

Better to estimate high and give the customer a pleasant surprise when they get the bill than estimate low and then have to keep giving customers calls with bad news.


All this brings up an interesting point guys.

What do you actually want from a specialist? An optimistic estimate which is unlikely to be true on any given car, a worst case scenario which is a "no more than" (unless something nasty is found like swarf in the gear oil) or an average price that is almost certainly not going to be accurate?

In light of the economy, we tend to estimate "no more than" prices and have fixed prices for most things so people can budget... it means we loose jobs to places who are a little optimistic in their estimates, but it saves the arguments and confrontation.

 

[Indi9xx]

30 mins if the car is on the ramp already?!?!?!?!?

Tell you what, sounds like a challenge.

Rules of the challenge.

A 944 turbo drives onto a 2 post lift, is loaded onto the lift and raised to a working height.

If one man, can remove the transmission on a 944 turbo, change the input shaft seal and get the transmission back in, and do a transmission fluid change, so it can drive out again in 30 mins, not only will I give them a job at £100,000 per anum, I will give them a £4000 cash prize.

Send this man in my direction, I want to give him a the job as the best paid mechanic in the UK. The window for this challenge is anytime in the next 3 months (I am keen to find someone like this!)

It might be possible to replace the seal via the inspection hole in the bell housing of the transmission, but your not going to have the seal perfectly seated, and the area inspected for cracks and cleaned up properly, we would not entertain that kind of job.. Sounds a bit like dentistry via colonoscopy.

Actually, on reflection, I don't think there is even enough space between the torque tube shaft and the input shaft to do it via the inspection hole.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

All this brings up an interesting point guys.

What do you actually want from a specialist? An optimistic estimate which is unlikely to be true on any given car, a worst case scenario which is a "no more than" (unless something nasty is found like swarf in the gear oil) or an average price that is almost certainly not going to be accurate?

In light of the economy, we tend to estimate "no more than" prices and have fixed prices for most things so people can budget... it means we loose jobs to places who are a little optimistic in their estimates, but it saves the arguments and confrontation.

It's a very interesting question, Jon.

I've raised menu pricing recently, as my car's not had an air filter for many years. I understand why specialists would list a minor S2 service without this, as it's a longer job, but it has to be very transparent if I'm to know what's not included. The same happened with my caliper overhaul, as nothing was even close to the fixed-price guide. Giving a lowest-possible price that fails to include even the most likely extras, just annoys me. I can't budget on a fixed-price service if every year it's double!

Major jobs are almost impossible to estimate, as you say. And, it's pretty irrelevant as it could well take less than the worst-case, but can also throw up other problems that mean it could go up as well. I guess, personally, it's all about knowing the specialist well, and trusting them to give a realistic ball-park figure. I'd never expect them to be spot-on every time, but they should be pretty close with all their experience, and knowing my car over many years.

I don't think you can ever win, particularly if you try to compete with the lowest prices out there, but at least a fair "average" price, with the caveat that "x" or "y" is often seized and can add an hour to the job, for instance, is a good compromise. Better IMO to have, say 20% error either way on an average price, than be 50% over or under on worst-case or best-case estimates?

 

[GlennS]

As a disinterested observer, might I suggest that there still seems to be some confusion between inputs and outputs over the scope of work

ORIGINAL: Ex Skyline
It is the Gearbox Output Seal that need's replacing.

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

remove the transmission on a 944 turbo, change the input shaft seal and get the transmission back in

Perhaps we're talking apples and oranges?

 

[Bob]

I think what most people want from a Garage is proper communication about what is involved in any large job and a realistic estimate of cost. This obviously hasn't happened here as the OP was given a price almost double the amount illustrated here over several paragraphs by Indi9xx.

If the original estimate was as full and comprehensive as the one given here then none of this would have happened and the Garage wouldn't have to start fighting fires on an Internet forum. In all my years of driving I don't think I have ever had a bill from a Garage come in at less than the original estimate. I always think of the estimate as the starting price and prepare my wallet for the worst

 

[colin944]

I did the output seals on my gbox when it was out and kicking about the floor.It did however take me about 2 hrs to get the bugger out and as one of the cap head bolts was rounded by a previous botcher.I had to resort to using my irvin bolt removing tools and then go and buy a new bolt from Porsche.I also had to replace both the bolts on the coupling sleeve as they were also both knackered.
So if I had quoted some one a price for doing it I would have done myself big time.

 

[Indi9xx]

Just to put the record straight, what Pete's car needs is the replacement of the transmission *Input* shaft oil seal, which is leaking.

One of the guys in the workshop here spotted it was leaking, jamie in reception from experience knew if the box is coming out, it may as well have all the seals (input and output) replaced and estimated for that, which I believe is the price (£550 + vat including parts and labour worst case including input and output seals) which originally prompted Pete to fall through the floor. Then Jamie was reminded that Pete had his output shaft oil seals replaced earlier in the year, at which point he re-estimated as shown in my previous post (£394 + VAT).

An output shaft oil seal is much quicker to replace and can done without removing the transmission. The input shaft oil seal requires transmission removal.

I really do not know why we were tarred with somehow being confused or ripping off a customer, all we did was spot a problem, estimate the best solution, revise that quote in the light that part of it has recently been done and was not going to be necessary and then get burned alive for it.

Not so much in here fighting fires, more trying to find out why there is a fire at all.

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

30 mins if the car is on the ramp already?!?!?!?!?

Obviously a different job Jon! Post #4 correct 'input shaft' in the OP to 'output shaft', which I took to be the driveshaft.

 

[Indi9xx]

944man,

I am sorry for that, I thought you too were talking about the input shaft, which is all we have been saying all along. So I accept you were talking about the output shaft oil seals. Sorry again.

So I guess the 30 min transmission swap and input shaft oil seal challenge is off... Damn, was hoping to hire a superhero mechanic

 

[andy watson]

ORIGINAL: Indi9xx

944man,

I am sorry for that, I thought you too were talking about the input shaft, which is all we have been saying all along. So I accept you were talking about the output shaft oil seals. Sorry again.

So I guess the 30 min transmission swap and input shaft oil seal challenge is off... Damn, was hoping to hire a superhero mechanic

And that is why you will never beat the phone! The written word can be, and very often is misinterpreted which is what seems to have happened in this instance more than once!

Hopefully Pete & Jon can get over this hiccup and continue their Porsche relationship.

 

[andy watson]

Jon,

Having just read the thread over on Tipec "The problem with Internet forums and taking advice" I think it may have been a good idea to have posted the same on here!

To be honest It is a bit disappointing to read that you find it drives you potty over here, if that is the case why bother signing in and posting?

Surely what ever is posted here makes no difference? And if you are going to moan and dislike it openly on a forum then is that not much the same as Pete has done to you regarding an estimate of work which has been obviously mis-understood?

As a well known and respected independant Porsche specialist I would rather see more of your informative and very helpful threads and input here as well as Tipec, and less of the worry about having to defend yourself or run down this forum!