Helmets - Open Face or Full Face?
- Thread starter timarnold
- Start date
Steve Brookes
Moderator
I fully agree that there can be other causes of sudden brake failure and of course know that you have personal experience of that. I've also heard of brake discs shattering. We can't foresee either of these things happening. However, I was referring to the point that Tim was told that they *thought* the cause of this particular incident was loss of fluid (and therefore pressure). Therefore this lead me to question whether the driver really hadn't had any signs earlier in the day of the impending disaster i.e. a soft/long pedal? I've come across many people at trackdays that have said that they're letting the brakes cool down because the pedal has gone soft....before they go out again!
I know this is all a bit off-topic and that the purpose of Tim's post was to discuss safety equipment but it got me thinking about whether the incident in his example *could* have been prevented.
I also agree about Melv's and your advice about that harnesses should be fitted and used correctly, so much so, that I removed my own 'road harnesses' this weekend because I felt they could do more harm than good in a big accident. Now I've just got to decide if I should get proper 6 point harnesses fitted in a car that has no cage. [&:]
Key thing here for me is that the full face helmert will absorb some of the energy that your face would otherwise take the brunt of. No doubt that a full face helmet makes sense in that respect. Would Massa still be here , were it not for a full face helmet. Another bonus is you can use it when karting.
Steve, if I stopped every time I had a soft a pedal, I'd never be out there! Personally, I think that overheating the brakes so you can feel a soft pedal, isnt a signal to park up for the day. Clearly it depends how bad it is, but often the brakes will come back to you, even by driving a bit more gently on the brakes will work.
I really cant advise if fitting harnesses without a cage is a good idea. I have heard bad things about it. Again, I recommend talking to Jen at MSAR, she really takes this stuff seriously and is very well informed.
timarnold
New member
Guys, just to clarify, there was no soft pedal or any other warning in this instance. There appears to have been a sudden and catastrophic total loss of brakes with no warning whatsoever, the cause not yet known. Prior to that the brakes were working fine with no indication of any ensuing problem. Eye witnesses watching from behind the car, from the pits, reported that the brake lights didn't come on, which would suggest hydraulic pressure was completely lost, as the brake light switch on those BMW's is operated by the brake fluid pressure.
However, the point of my post was to bring to light the potential dangers of wearing an open face helmet, not what may or may not cause a driver's face to come into contact with the steering wheel in the first place. The fact is there are numerous circumstances that could cause that contact to happen, and there are numerous other objects that could come into contact with a drivers face in an accident. While it is certainly likely to be a more effective prevention than an inertia reel seat belt, wearing a full harness is not a guarantee that you won't take a bite out of the steering wheel in a head on impact, even if it is fitted correctly.
However, the point of my post was to bring to light the potential dangers of wearing an open face helmet, not what may or may not cause a driver's face to come into contact with the steering wheel in the first place. The fact is there are numerous circumstances that could cause that contact to happen, and there are numerous other objects that could come into contact with a drivers face in an accident. While it is certainly likely to be a more effective prevention than an inertia reel seat belt, wearing a full harness is not a guarantee that you won't take a bite out of the steering wheel in a head on impact, even if it is fitted correctly.
Neil Haughey
New member
I spotted on the Stand21 website that the head can move forward about 16" and with HANS this is reduced to 10". Now 16" is an awful long way even assuming a proper race seat and harnesses. I think in our MX-5 I would probably hit the wheel but maybe not in the S2 race car. Given that the head whipping forward that far can cause serious problems without hitting the wheel then surely it would be better to have a HANS device than to spend money getting a full face helmet if one already has an open face helmet?
that theory only works if the helmet you have is hans ready !
Neil Haughey
New member
Well it is a theory that is reality for me at the moment. I have an OMP Jet 3 or 4 can't remember which, but its open face and I bought it a couple of years back, came pre-drilled for HANS but I didn't ask for the posts when I bought it. Now I have the decision either to spend 400 quid on a Schroth HANS sport setup or similar on a full face helmet. My 6 point harness can be used with HANS and can be wrapped over the rear cage cross bar to get a straight line pull for the shoulder straps.
DSCBoy
New member
In the interests of disclosure I should point out I have family links to both Stand 21 and HANS... I've raced with people who have died and I've had team mates walk away from crashes because they had the right safety gear.
BUT! I have seen too many people chew steering wheels because of open face helmets that I am of the opinion that open face should be banned. I would NEVER get out on a track in an open face. It's too hot? Uncomfortable? Diddums! Go knitting for the afternoon instead.
Similarly I've lost a couple of guys I knew because they were too stupid to buy a HANS device, preferring an extra set of tyres for the race weekend instead. Guessing their kids wished they'd bought the HANS device now.
Yes it's harsh. Yes it's the real world. But I get really f*cked off by people discussing safety on the web and convincing each other to take short cuts. (Not saying that the discussion here is of that nature).
It's really simple:
If your car has proper belts, you should be wearing a full face with HANS.
If your car has inertia real you should still be wearing full face and you should be asking some serious questions about how hard you want to push or whether you should be on the circuit at all.
Anything else is a stupid and inexcusable short cut.
BUT! I have seen too many people chew steering wheels because of open face helmets that I am of the opinion that open face should be banned. I would NEVER get out on a track in an open face. It's too hot? Uncomfortable? Diddums! Go knitting for the afternoon instead.
Similarly I've lost a couple of guys I knew because they were too stupid to buy a HANS device, preferring an extra set of tyres for the race weekend instead. Guessing their kids wished they'd bought the HANS device now.
Yes it's harsh. Yes it's the real world. But I get really f*cked off by people discussing safety on the web and convincing each other to take short cuts. (Not saying that the discussion here is of that nature).
It's really simple:
If your car has proper belts, you should be wearing a full face with HANS.
If your car has inertia real you should still be wearing full face and you should be asking some serious questions about how hard you want to push or whether you should be on the circuit at all.
Anything else is a stupid and inexcusable short cut.
Neil Haughey
New member
I am actually contemplating going further and fitting a seat such as the Cobra evo ones with the ears and keeping the sparco rev as a bolt in/out passenger seat.
I've now bought a Schroth carbon Pro HANS device. Schroth helmet clips are on the way. My lid (Bell Sport4) has pre-drilled holes for the clips apparently. There are dimples in the lid but no holes. Are there threaded inserts beneath the surface? Do I just push the clips up against the helmet and twist until they break through? Anyone done this before?
Neil Haughey
New member
ORIGINAL: h_____
Sounds like a good idea - got any pics? Maybe I should look on the 944 forum!! [] Sounds like a fun car
Well it should be back at EMC after its final blow over on Saturday, if it is there I will be taking some pictures so I guess its a watch this space. However being that is a maritime blue S2 prepped by EMC it will look very much like Mark Koeberle's car shown here
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=508694 Be warned though its a very long thread.
Main differences from Marks car are 1) its an S2 and not a turbo 2) Mine has been built from the ground up based on an acid dipped full motorsport prepped shell.
DSCBoy
New member
Paul, there won't be threads the other side of the dimples I'd guess, no. Usually u need an expert to do it and out the appropriate sticker on the helmet if you are going to use for motorsport at any point... would NOT recommend home fitting but the wife has done it a few times so it's not too tough if you know what you are doing. Just make sure it's going to be valid afterwards and safe.
Cheers
Rick
Cheers
Rick
I use a HANS bought from the states when the £/$ was in our favour and it arrived complete with posts, spanner and a DVD describing in minute detail how to fit the posts, how to mark out the hole positions etc. etc.
TBH any half-competent person could fit them. It is a threaded post, a couple of washers and a nut. Obviously DSCBoy's wife will not be able to put on the certification sticker for motorsport use and neither can I.
TBH any half-competent person could fit them. It is a threaded post, a couple of washers and a nut. Obviously DSCBoy's wife will not be able to put on the certification sticker for motorsport use and neither can I.
Neil Haughey
New member
Stand 21 have produced an RS.2 model that is only 200g or so heavier than the pro model but costs a bit over 400 quid. I think this is what I will be purchasing.
ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
ORIGINAL: h_____
Sounds like a good idea - got any pics? Maybe I should look on the 944 forum!! [
Well it should be back at EMC after its final blow over on Saturday, if it is there I will be taking some pictures so I guess its a watch this space. However being that is a maritime blue S2 prepped by EMC it will look very much like Mark Koeberle's car shown here
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=508694 Be warned though its a very long thread.
Main differences from Marks car are 1) its an S2 and not a turbo 2) Mine has been built from the ground up based on an acid dipped full motorsport prepped shell.
Well if its anything like that car, it will be really nice done - must be a great project. Will satisfying to get it on track.
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