Considering 944 as a weekend car: £1,500 Challenge

[Chunk49]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Me buying it isn't to have 12 months worth of motoring and not to have an MOT in my ownership. Ideally, I would probably have the car for 2 or 3 years

Well that's your issue, then. One year might be enough to get lucky with a 25-year-old Porsche for £1500 and no significant costs, but three? No way.

You really will have to either treat the car as a cheap "scrapper", and throw it away when the first bills come in. Or, treat it as a better car than the equivalent 911, and far cheaper, but still a car that costs thousands, rather than hundreds, to own over several years.

Thinking really cheap, rear-wheel fun for little money I'd still go for a 924, or an early MX5. If you can't work on the car yourself, like me, you're in to £500 for a basic service and odd things that need doing, every year. Plus the inevitable things like the brake overhaul and fuel lines that cost me £3K last year alone. Get what you want straight first, then look at what suits you best. []

Again good points. As I said, £500 - £1,000 a year over three years I'd be prepared to spend, but I think if it came to £3k bills I would just sell the car rather than incur that cost! IT is food for thought.

Why are 924s so much cheaper to run/maintain than the 944?

I suppose there won't be many cars that offer mega bang for buck at around £1,500, that are cool, pretty and desirable AND low cost maintenance? I hear the MX5s are supposed to be fairly bullet proof, but to be honest I really don't want a convertible and not a smaller (dare I say it slightly 'girly') one. And I LOVE Porsche. Wanted one for ages.

 

[Copperman05]

I think its unlikely you will hate the car as I've yet to meet someone who's owned a 944 and don't think fondly of them. Whether it will be a money pit is another matter and why I say, all other things being equal, that a £2500 car is less likely to be a money pit than a £1500 car and may save you more over the long term, despite, yet also because of, its initial asking price...

If you are in London you are willing to come and take a look at my S2 (although different you can familiarise yourself with what to look for), kick some 944 tyres and discuss your options, I'm in N8.

Edd

 

[simdel1]

Unfortunately there's no such thing as a cheap porsche (except maybe the 924). If you get a cheap one you might hate it simply because it's a bad example. As paul rightly points out, if you're not doing any of the work yourself it could get very expensive very quickly. It is not a pipe dream to buy a 944 for £1500, but you need to expect it to need a lot of work.

 

[spyro_x]

If I may suggest, go drive one or two first and make sure they are what you are looking for, also decide which model floats your boat (we all love them on here but they're not for everyone). Whilst you test drive a couple do some research in terms of costs, insurance, general maintenance costs and look around in your local vicinity for folks who can do the work for you should you have a problem - build up a picture of what it will cost you then if it's still a goer, well go buy

However I think Edd's estimates are right on point and are pretty much what I've paid in my first year of S2 ownership, and I bought one with a huge service history with all the key things addressed within the last couple of years - but I know I have large bills lurking ahead so have a little side fund to take care of them

 

[Chunk49]

Thanks Copperman - that would be great - I may drop you a PM once I've done some more research

Just thinking - are there any like "self-service" garages in London where you hire a bay for a few and that includes use of a car lift and tools etc?? I would really enjoy learning about the car by doing some spannering and would help keep the running costs down. As long as it wouldn't involve 4 hours every weekend!

 

[Copperman05]

Yes pitstart http://www.pitstartgarage.com/

 

[bighead]

I had bought a 1987 944S 16v of a member here last year for £3K , car was it very good condition for a 24yrs old car.
since the purchase i have spend around £2k on the car and will probably spent another £2k on it to get it the condition which i like my ride( and i can do basic servicing and fluid change ).
i use it as a run around/fun car as I have other cars and Bikes .
So if yr budget is £1,500 ...you will probably spend alot more than me !!

the point yr missing with these cars is " people buy them as a passion and not as a means of transport "

so the amount of cash spent on them do not figured in the equation ( at least not in my case )

to put the running cost of a 944 in perspective .......my 2010 E90 M3 has probably lost 20K since I purchased it in Dec/09 !!!! (where the 944 probably lost afew hundreds in comparsion).

But so what ...we can't take it all down under ...enjoy while you still can

 

[Chunk49]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

Yes pitstart http://www.pitstartgarage.com/

http://www.pitstartgarage.com/

That looks ACE!

Realistically, how much of the necessary work do you think a normal person (i.e. not a mechanic!) can do themselves and how much will they need a mechanic to do?

 

[Copperman05]

If you have no mechanical/engineering background you could probably service the car yourself, beyond that you may struggle...

Edd

 

[Eldavo]

I might disagree there Edd, I don't have a mechanical or engineering background but have done belts, water pump, suspension, brakes, cam box gasket, etc.

If you have a garage, time and a methodical approach to the job then the 944 is a very easy car to work on.

 

[Copperman05]

My bad, change background to experience, from chunks post on PH I know he has neither.

Edd

 

[jwindwood]

ORIGINAL: Chunk49



Jwindwood - thanks for the offer but I really like the look of the 944 much more than the 924. And then there's the whole 944 is a proper porsche and a 924 isn't etc. Out of interest though, why is the 924 cheaper to maintain?

The 924 is just as much a proper Porsche as any of the others-heck, it's the car that saved the company in the 1980s! The reason its so much cheaper to maintain is basically because of the many VW Audi components it uses and the simplicity of the design. For instance, a 944 cambelt etc can cost £300 to get changed. A 924 cambelt kit costs £30, takes about an hour to fit and if it breaks, it won't damage the engine as it's a non-interference engine.
Front suspension bottom wishbones-S2 944 use alloy at up to £400 a piece. The 924 uses steel VW Golf ones (Like the very early 944) that cost £15ish each. Need I go on? []

 

[Fat Albert]

Go for it Chunk!

When you are looking don't get hung up on age & Mileage, look at the recent history, the attitude of the seller and how the car drives and feels - make sure head, heart and gut are all in alignment!

I travelled miles looking for one 3 years ago (I had a budget of £3k and didn't mind which model I got) and after driving a few was very down-heartened at how old and knackered they all felt (all between 94k and 156k miles) and had given up when my Porsche-owning mate persuaded me to drive a Turbo 2 villages from where I lived that I had dismissed due to its 194,000 miles and had been on the market for 3 months starting at £4k.

When I got there the paint looked awful (it is guards red and had gone very milky and flat), but it was parked outside a nicely-kept house and the seller had some proper affection for it with a folder full of bills. Mechanically it had been cherished and used as an every day car for most of its life (the biggest bills was from when it did a stint as a third car...). It had an honesty to it and I was smitten, I left to consider it and called him the next day and did the deal at £2,600.

I had a big service, MOT. and the belts done immediately (£500) and 2 rear tyres after the inevitable 2 week spin (£220), the only other money I spent in the first year/5,000 miles was a replacement centre console pad and hinge (£30) - so £750 in total

The next year/8,000 miles I decided to lavish a bit of care on it and spent £2000 on getting the sills repaired, wheel bearings, brakes, etc, etc

This third year/18,000 miles it has had some hard use and I have spent around £1,000 so far and she needs another £500-800 spent before the MoT in June.

But the depreciation is nominal, £4,000 maintenance for 30,000+ miles is much cheaper than a modern car and the satisfaction and enjoyment she gives me is immense

I have done some of the work myself, ably assisted by my 8 year old son, here he is changing the brakes for me (they cost £25 an end for pads):

Go for it and have fun!

 

[zcacogp]

Chunk,

Hello and welcome, from another London-based 944 owner. I can't add much to what has already been said, but would echo the comments about buying a good one, and particularly buying on condition. Nice people drive nice cars, and you can (and will) find 944's within that budget; your job is sorting out the nice ones from the rest.

Being prepared to spend more on a good one is a wise idea; I suspect it will be a good investment no matter what you decide to do in 1, 2 or 3 years time. A good one will throw up less bills while you have it, and is more likely to work when you need it to (it sounds like you won't be using your car much, and 944's never that that kindly to sitting around doing nothing - they always work better if they are driven regularly.) A good one will also be a better long-term proposition as you won't be chasing problems and wondering whether to do a temporary and cheap repair on something or whether to have it repaired properly at great expense (rust is a typical example of this.) ALSO, the little more you would spend on a better one should be repaid when you come to sell it.

Go for a better one. It will work out cheaper in the long run. A cheaper one may be OK if you are very practical and are looking for something to work on but that doesn't sound like you.

Cost to run? How long is a piece of string? People on here are talking about £1500 a year, which is a sensible (conservative) estimate. However you will be able to bring this down a lot of you can do your own servicing and minor maintenance. 944's are VERY DIY-friendly and if you want to, there is a lot of saving to be made by getting your hands dirty. (Slight aside; if you want to go this route then you'll need to buy a reasonable toolkit, which may cost a couple of hundred quid!) As i said, I live in London and do all my maintenance myself, by the side of the (quiet residential) road. Yes, you need a sense of humour if you find yourself replacing the cambelt on a rainy day in November, (lying on your back in the gutter with a stream of water running from your collar to your underpants) but the sense of satisfaction when it is done is immense!

Do get a quote for insurance before you buy; costs for this can vary hugely, especially if you don't have a long record of no crashes in other cars. And also look at prices of things like parking permits, as they can mount up a bit.

As Edd (Copperman) said, if you want to have a nose around a 944 then drop him or me a line. We both have S2's, which are a little different to the Lux's you'll probably be looking at, but not hugely so. And if you want a second opinion on one that you are looking at buying then ask around on here; this is a friendly forum, and there is likely to be someone local to any car you are looking at who may be able to be persuaded to have a look and offer an opinion, in exchange for a beer or two. I'll certainly extend this offer if you find one in East London or out into Essex.

You asked what's the difference between a lux and a non-lux; as McNulters (font of all 944 wisdom) said, 944's come in various flavours, and lux was the badge of the lower-spec ones. All early 944's were lux's, and came with 2.5L 8v engines and the same interior as 924's (called 'square dash' cars.) These are the lightest, most basic, and reputedly the most fun 944's to drive, and probably the cheapest to run. Later on they introduced a more modern interior ('oval dash' cars), but kept the 2.5L engine. They then developed a 16v head for that 2.5L engine, and called it an 'S', but carried on producing the 8v lux alongside it. In about 1987 the lux engine grew to 2.7L (still with an 8v head), and the S engine grew to 3L, and was called an 'S2'. They also produced a 2.5L 8v turbocharged car alongside all of these models, called a 'Turbo'. However, in short, a 944 is a 'lux', an 'S', an 'S2' or a 'Turbo'.


Oli.

A NOTE TO EVERYONE ELSE:

£1500 a year to maintain a Lux? Really? I could fairly readily believe £1500 for an S2 if you paid to have everything done for you (although mine has cost me less than £100 for the last two years - I have been very lucky), but lux's are simpler than the S2/turbo's, have better-designed bodywork so won't rust as much, have simpler brakes so don't suffer from plate lift, don't have the cam chain issue that S2's do and don't have all the issues associated with turbos. And I'm not aware of any faults that are peculiar to them. I'd have thought that would make them a lot cheaper to run, surely?

 

[robdimond]

I have to say, I don't buy the 'stop loss' argument. If you can be that hard-headed about it, then you are a stronger man than me! []
The most likely scenario is not one single bill of the value of the car, but you will spend 'a few hundred quid' here and there over the first year, salami slicing you into spending £3 or £4k on the car.
By that time you will have a lot invested, and will probably also have an attachment to it.
That said, there is still a significant amount of luck involved... and i'm sure there are good examples for £1500 if you're prepared to research and hunt for one. You can't do enough research and looking at cars before parting with cash.

At the end of the day, I don't think there is a sound financial argument for buying an old 944. It's a mobile cost centre with a desirable bonnet badge (as the PO of my car said!). Buy one because you love it, and enjoy the maintenance and excitement every time it makes it through an MOT!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

£1500 a year to maintain a Lux? Really?

Not purely to maintain it, but run one yes. That's about where I'd put it? Bearing in mind I do almost nothing on my own cars so every little job is a big bill for labour and VAT.

My Lux cost almost exactly £1K per year to run over 5 years, not counting fuel; so with c. 5K miles per year it was easily £1500 per year. That's to buy, tax, insure and service, depreciate etc. I can't say "I'd have spent that anyway", as it was purely a third car.

Looking long-term, it needed more money spending over the coming years; Bodywork, respray, wheels refurbed and new tyres etc. That would certainly have upped the average annual spend. The S2 has cost more than £2K per year over 3 years, but that includes £3K of major refurbishment to brakes, fuel lines etc., again not including fuel. [&o]

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

A NOTE TO EVERYONE ELSE:

£1500 a year to maintain a Lux? Really? I could fairly readily believe £1500 for an S2 if you paid to have everything done for you (although mine has cost me less than £100 for the last two years - I have been very lucky), but lux's are simpler than the S2/turbo's, have better-designed bodywork so won't rust as much, have simpler brakes so don't suffer from plate lift, don't have the cam chain issue that S2's do and don't have all the issues associated with turbos. And I'm not aware of any faults that are peculiar to them. I'd have thought that would make them a lot cheaper to run, surely?

Perhaps not on a £3000 well kept car, but I think you could potentially spend up to £1500 a year on a £1500 lux in the first few years of owner ship, perhaps not every year but the odd one and that was the point I was making. You only need a clutch change and major service and your about there...

Edd

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
My Lux cost almost exactly £1K per year to run over 5 years, not counting fuel; so with c. 5K miles per year it was easily £1500 per year. That's to buy, tax, insure and service, depreciate etc. I can't say "I'd have spent that anyway", as it was purely a third car.

OK, in which case we need to be a bit more careful about what this 'per year' cost is covering. I am talking about maintenance costs; if you throw in tax, insurance and depreciation then the figure will get a lot bigger. In fact Paul, if you ran a lux for £1000 a year including all this, AND paying for the maintenance, then I'd say you were doing pretty well.

The issue of big expenditures is a tricky one. Edd, you are right in saying that a clutch job and a service could eat up £1500 pretty quickly, and I agree with you. Throw in some cills, belts and waterpump and you'll be making that more like £4000, but you would have to be very unfortunate to spend this much in a year. I guess that occasional big expenses will make some years look very painful, and the figure averaged per year may need to be taken across quite a long period before it regresses to the mean. (My S2 has cost me little for the last two years, but cost a LOT the two years before that - clutch, belts and waterpump, and then belts again.)

Which perhaps comes back to the idea of buying a good car. A £2000 (or even £2200) lux that has had some big things fixed recently will be a much better short-term ownership proposition than a £1000 lux that will need a clutch in the coming 12 months.

Maybe another thread would be useful, getting a real-world idea of how much people have spent on their 944's, and the associated cost /mile and /year. It would help people like our chunky new friend with questions about prospective purchases, and be an interesting reference point for others. (Although I guess that some people may not actually want to admit to how much they have spent ... !)


Oli.

 

[Copperman05]

Ha, would that be just how much I have needed to spend on the car or how much I have chosen to spend, the two being slightly different in my view...

Either way its still alot!

Edd

 

[Chunk49]

Hi All

Just read the last few posts.

I just wanted to say how grateful I am for all your help and advice, and offers to let me come and have a look at your 944 etc. I didn't expect such a great response - so thank you - you all seem like really decent blokes

I think where I am at currently, is that some people are saying if I buy a £1,500 944 it will be a money pit, and some people are saying that they've bought a 944 for less than that and it has been fine. From what people have said - my head is saying 924 (or some other great value low cost car that I do not yet know about - suggestions also welcome) but my heart is saying 944!!

Whichever one I buy I will try and do some spannering myself at the pit stop garage as I think it will obviously save lots of money AND give me an attachment to the car.