Considering 944 as a weekend car: £1,500 Challenge

[Chunk49]

Hi All

I posted the below on the Pistonheads Porsche forum earlier today and together with some very helpful advice, I was pointed over to here. Any thoughts/advice most welcome. I am aware £1,500 is pretty much the bottom of the market budget-wise, but I am trying to avoid the man-maths budget creap spiral which keeps ending up with me just not buying anything which is getting very frustrating!

I've been told on PH to go for a Lux - but I don't know the differences between a Lux and non-Lux? 2.5 litre or 2.7?

Many thanks.


QUOTE

I am a serial lurker on the pistonheads porsche forum and a serial car day-dreamer (mainly Porsche), and am trying to get my act together and actually buy one, as I am frustrating myself by continuously looking at different kinds of cars at different kinds of budgets and reading up on them and then not buying them!

One day I will have a 911, but we all have to start somewhere and it will be my first car - so a fun first car I reckon.

Hopefully this will be an end to the frustrating dreamer cycle and I will scratch my porker itch. I'm considering a 944. £1,500 budget.

What I'm looking for is a 944 that is mechanically/fundamentally straight and that (all things being equal) won't cause me much grief/expense over the next say 12 months and that I can sell in say 12 months time for about the same (or not much less) than I bought it for. I am fully expecting it to be rough around the edges appearance-wise, as, let's face it, £1,500 isn't a lot of money for a car that was nearly £40k in the eighties.

So clearly the car isn't going to be anywhere near mint. However, the priority for me is for it to be mechanically straight in the first place, with all big (money-wise) items sorted. I can then tart it up over time if I choose to.

I've read a lot about them, and I've lurked in the Pistonheads Porsche forum for ages, so I know to buy on condition condition condition and get it inspected by someone who knows 944s in order to buy a straight well-sorted car not a money pit.

I'm looking for:

- 944 coupe
- manual
- white or red or grey/silver(there is a silvery gray colour I have seen that I really like - it was the colour on the "wheeler dealer" programme 944 they turned into a track car)
- NOT horrid brown interior
- would just be used at weekends - prob no more than 3,000 miles a year

The reason for my post is as follows:

1. to be informed as to whether my £1,500 mechanically straight well sorted 944 is a pipe-dream or not and whether running it on a modest budget once purchased is also a pipe-dream;

2. if it is a pipe-dream, to be pointed to similar kinds of cheap, fun weekend cars as ideas;

3. to be informed as to which of the 944 models I should be going for given the above price (obv Turbos and S2s would be too expensive anyway) - mechanically straight/reliable more important than faster model;

4. to be pointed to some potential 944s for sale that meet my criteria;

5. to be pointed to a company / person who knows 944s that I could either buy one off or who would go and take a look at one I intend to buy to tell me if it's a straight car or not;

6. to be pointed to a company / person who could help with the maintenance of the car once I've bought;

7. general advice throughout the purchase process

8. following purchase, hints and tips as to things like good value tyres, where to get a nice sounding exhaust etc. I might do a running report on the car when eventually bought.

I live in London if that would make a difference as to any of the above answers.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: Chunk49

The reason for my post is as follows:

1. to be informed as to whether my £1,500 mechanically straight well sorted 944 is a pipe-dream or not and whether running it on a modest budget once purchased is also a pipe-dream;

Not a pipe dream but difficult, you'd need to hunt around for a long time and you'd need to know what you looking at to prevent buying another dog.

2. if it is a pipe-dream, to be pointed to similar kinds of cheap, fun weekend cars as ideas;

924, you get more for you 1500 and maybe less of a gamble, the look of the 924 has grown on me recently, I've considered doing the Scumrum in one too...

3. to be informed as to which of the 944 models I should be going for given the above price (obv Turbos and S2s would be too expensive anyway) - mechanically straight/reliable more important than faster model;

Early lux, auto's are cheaper but only 3 gears and not really rated, however may provide cheap way to Porsche ownership with ur budget.

4. to be pointed to some potential 944s for sale that meet my criteria;
That you will need o do yourself, research all you can and take someone with you that knows these cars or at least may spot a bad one.

5. to be pointed to a company / person who knows 944s that I could either buy one off or who would go and take a look at one I intend to buy to tell me if it's a straight car or not;

Inspection is going to cost £200+

6. to be pointed to a company / person who could help with the maintenance of the car once I've bought;
Depends where in London you are, most charge more than counties hence why many go to RPM or Promax both off M1.

7. general advice throughout the purchase process
Read buying guides, go look at some good 944's, dont buy the first one you see...

8. following purchase, hints and tips as to things like good value tyres, where to get a nice sounding exhaust etc. I might do a running report on the car when eventually bought
You probably have other things to spend your money on initially rather than exhaust upgrades, that comes later...[]

I live in London if that would make a difference as to any of the above answers. Yes, insurance more expensive (if you can get it, try Classic line first), servicing as above, damage from parking (others not you), criminal damage (keys usually).

Thanks for your help!

Your welcome

 

[jwindwood]

It's possible, but for that budget you will only get a car that needs some work.
I was lucky-I recently bought a 1985 Lux with a fully reconditioned engine/new clutch, rad, starter etc etc for £600 Tested for 11 months and taxed for 6.
However, although the body is solid, the sills are not pretty and will need further work and a repaint. It was a bargain, but I expect to spend another £6-800 to make it really presentable.

 

[Chunk49]

Thanks Copperman - that's really helpful.

I'm really set on the 944 rather than 924 - the wheel arches really do it for me!

So early Lux - what's the difference between a non-Lux and a Lux? i.e. wanting to understand why I'm being told to go for that one

thanks

 

[Chunk49]

ORIGINAL: jwindwood

It's possible, but for that budget you will only get a car that needs some work.
I was lucky-I recently bought a 1985 Lux with a fully reconditioned engine/new clutch, rad, starter etc etc for £600 Tested for 11 months and taxed for 6.
However, although the body is solid, the sills are not pretty and will need further work and a repaint. It was a bargain, but I expect to spend another £6-800 to make it really presentable.

That sounds like exactly the kind of car I would be after. It would be OK if it was aesthetically a bit ropey to start with, as long as big mechanicals were all straight. That sounds like an absolute bargain!!

If you decide to flip it on instead of doing it up - you have a ready buyer! ;-)

 

[spyro_x]

I second the comment to look at 924's on your budget, you'll want to make sure you have some money in the kitty to take care of little things that will go wrong (these are motors in their 20's - some in their 30's)

If you've been hankering after one for a long time then spend some quality time infront of your PC researching the things to look for, they're well built motors and if looked after will last a lot longer yet but there are lots of well known things to look for - a good service (recent) history is worth looking for.

Good luck and I think forum rules dictate that when you do purchase it you drop a post with a pic or two!

EDIT: OK while I was writing the above you've replied that the 924 isn't for you, I understand - I love the 944 too! Good luck

 

[pauljmcnulty]

[URL=http://www.pistonheads.com/gas...%A31%2C500+Challenge]pistonheads thread here, [/URL] lots of interesting comments.

Lux is the standard 8-valve car. Model line-up is, briefly:

Early lux, 924 interior. Late lux, interior like the white one you linked to. "S", same but 16-valve engine, "S2" bigger 16V engine and later body styling, turbo is a turbo. []

 

[Chunk49]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

[URL=http://www.pistonheads.com/gas...%A31%2C500+Challenge]pistonheads thread here, [/URL] lots of interesting comments.

Lux is the standard 8-valve car. Model line-up is, briefly:

Early lux, 924 interior. Late lux, interior like the white one you linked to. "S", same but 16-valve engine, "S2" bigger 16V engine and later body styling, turbo is a turbo. []

The thread you link above is the thread I started on pistonheads this afternoon. Thanks for the above explanation - very useful. What's the difference between a Lux and a non-Lux?

 

[Peter Empson]

Definitely possible, buy the right car and you could get away with very cheap fun motoring, get the wrong car and you could pay the purchase price again on repairs in a year. I bought a 944S from someone on this forum for well within your budget and it has been great, not regretted it for a second, so it can be done. Happy hunting!

 

[Chunk49]

Goodstuff - thanks - gives me hope in my search!!

Is there anywhere on PCBG where I can post up a "wanted/looking to buy" thread that sellers will see? Is there a classifieds section?

 

[jwindwood]

Seriously though-a 944 (Or 924S for that matter) can be expensive to maintain-the cam/balance belts alone can cost £300 to change every few years. I have both-a 924 and a 944. I know what you mean about the shape, but a decent 2 litre 924 is VASTLY Cheaper to maintain and generally much cheaper to buy. They are also just as much fun to drive, even though they aren't as powerful. I can honestly say that I enjoy driving them both in equal amounts for slightly different reasons.
Now if you are interested, I will have a very nice early 924 Lux manual for sale shortly......[]

 

[Copperman05]

I think the danger you will face is buying a car for £1500 that on the face of it looks ok but come the next MOT requires another £1000+ to pass, could be many things, rusty cills being the most obvious, but also suspension, brakes, structrual, etc...

Edd

 

[robdimond]

Find a good one and go for it! Lux is just what they call the base model. Best affordable performance classic out there. As others have said, even the very best example will have significant maintenance cost unless you do a lot of spannering yourself (and finding a place to work can be difficult for us city dwellers).

Insurance is also a cost that may shock, especially if you're keeping it on the street and it is your only car.

 

[Chunk49]

On cost my thinking is that of a car of this type, the purchase price acts as a stop-loss as far as I'm concered. So, if I buy one for £1,500, then the maxiumum I can lose is £1,500 if it goes bang and would cost lots to fix. If I buy one for £2,000, and it goes bang and costs lots to fix, my max loss has increased to £2,000. In all likelyhood the loss would obviously be less in both cases due to scrap value / sell it for parts etc, but you get the idea. Similarly, if I buy for a low price, then if for example I have it a few months and decide I hate it or it is turning into a money pit, it is easier for me to sell without a big loss. If a £3k turns into a money pit and I want to sell it and it needs work I might have to sell for £1500, crystallising a £1,500 loss. If a buy say a £1,500 car and have to do the same and only get half its value, I've only crystallised a £750 loss, and not having to have the extra £1,500 tied up in the car in the mean time.

Welcome thoughts on the above

On insurance - I'm going to ring some classic insurers tomorrow and get some quotes

quite exited!

Jwindwood - thanks for the offer but I really like the look of the 944 much more than the 924. And then there's the whole 944 is a proper porsche and a 924 isn't etc. Out of interest though, why is the 924 cheaper to maintain?

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: Chunk49

On cost my thinking is that of a car of this type, the purchase price acts as a stop-loss as far as I'm concered. So, if I buy one for £1,500, then the maxiumum I can lose is £1,500 if it goes bang and would cost lots to fix. If I buy one for £2,000, and it goes bang and costs lots to fix, my max loss has increased to £2,000. In all likelyhood the loss would obviously be less in both cases due to scrap value / sell it for parts etc, but you get the idea. Similarly, if I buy for a low price, then if for example I have it a few months and decide I hate it or it is turning into a money pit, it is easier for me to sell without a big loss. If a £3k turns into a money pit and I want to sell it and it needs work I might have to sell for £1500, crystallising a £1,500 loss. If a buy say a £1,500 car and have to do the same and only get half its value, I've only crystallised a £750 loss, and not having to have the extra £1,500 tied up in the car in the mean time.

Welcome thoughts on the above

I understand your point, but what your missing in your analysis is that the more you spend generally the better car you get and the less likely it will give you a loss. Good cars demand higher prices because they have a good service history, are well maintained, etc. The idea that by spending more and getting a better car is that there should be less risk, a cheap car although cheap, may not have been so well cared for, little service history, some jobs overlooked, and this generally is what can make it a more risky proposition.

The nack therefore is to buy a well maintained car at a good price (usually because the seller undervalues it), for this you need experience with what to look for, patience and a lot of luck....

Edd

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I understand your point, but what your missing in your analysis is that the more you spend generally the better car you get and the less likely it will give you a loss. Good cars demand higher prices because they have a good service history, are well maintained, etc. The idea that by spending more and getting a better car is that there should be less risk, a cheap car although cheap, may not have been so well cared for, little service history, some jobs overlooked, and this generally is what can make it a more risky proposition.

The nack therefore is to buy a well maintained car at a good price (usually because the seller undervalues it), for this you need experience with what to look for, patience and a lot of luck....

Totally agree. What I think is different here is the original poster's requirement:

What I'm looking for is a 944 that is mechanically/fundamentally straight and that (all things being equal) won't cause me much grief/expense over the next say 12 months and that I can sell in say 12 months time for about the same (or not much less) than I bought it for.

If it's really only a year or so then you have to think differently; you'll not need an MOT in your ownership, for instance. Or a service. Assuming the worst scrap value of a 944 that seemed OK a year ago is, say, £500, then you're talking "1K for a year in Porsche's finest. Buy a tatty car with decent mechanicals, run it in to the ground and either get lucky and sell it for near what you paid, or scrap it.

Buying a car that's a long-term project is a totally different thing, £1500 is enough to buy a project, but I'd stick my neck out and say most 944s are going to cost that much per year to run over a longer term. I have no issue with someone wanting to get a year's fun out of a car on it's last legs before it goes to the great scrapheap in the sky. I would, however, get annoyed if they came back after a year and complained that it was going to cost a lot to get through the next MOT. [8|]

 

[Chunk49]

My reason for limiting my budget and thinking only in terms of the next 12 months is because (a) I might hate it and want to get rid; (b) I might decide running a car is too much hassle (I live in London so don't need one); (c) with my job I could work abroad at some point etc.

Me buying it isn't to have 12 months worth of motoring and not to have an MOT in my ownership. Ideally, I would probably have the car for 2 or 3 years, but whether I have it for 12 months or 3 years, I am still looking to buy a car that is both well priced and mechanically fundamentally sound. As I said, I can accept ropey aesthetics and minor things that might need sorting.

This was one reason why in my initial post I asked for thoughts as to whether this was a pipe dream or not for a £1,500 budget. From the posts so far, some people seem to think this is definitely achievable, others seem to think not.

 

[Copperman05]

You need to ask yourself whether you can afford the £500-£1500 a year it will cost to run over the next 2-3 years, thats excluding insurance, tax, petrol, etc. Or if your aim is to run it into the ground over the same period and do the bare minimum then I think you better do that to a old fiesta or similar.


Edd

 

[Chunk49]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

You need to ask yourself whether you can afford the £500-£1500 a year it will cost to run over the next 2-3 years, thats excluding insurance, tax, petrol, etc. Or if your aim is to run it into the ground over the same period and do the bare minimum then I think you better do that to a old fiesta or similar.


Edd

It's a good point you make re running costs. I would be really happy with £500 a year. I think £1000 a year to run would be OK but not great. I could afford to but there's no way I want to pay £1500 a year to run it!

I would love to do my own oil changes etc after reading a few guides on how to do it, so could try and save some money that way - but doubt I'll be able to do much more than that myself unless I really get into it!

To be clear - I'm really into cars and especially Porsche - I'm not looking to run the car into the ground - I reckon I would actually fall completely in love with it and I hope to get quite attached to it and all going well keep for 2 or 3 years. My point in thinking ahead and budget is as I've said, to stop the budget creep man-maths, and also in case either for some reason I hate or it starts to turn into a money pit.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Me buying it isn't to have 12 months worth of motoring and not to have an MOT in my ownership. Ideally, I would probably have the car for 2 or 3 years

Well that's your issue, then. One year might be enough to get lucky with a 25-year-old Porsche for £1500 and no significant costs, but three? No way.

You really will have to either treat the car as a cheap "scrapper", and throw it away when the first bills come in. Or, treat it as a better car than the equivalent 911, and far cheaper, but still a car that costs thousands, rather than hundreds, to own over several years.

Thinking really cheap, rear-wheel fun for little money I'd still go for a 924, or an early MX5. If you can't work on the car yourself, like me, you're in to £500 for a basic service and odd things that need doing, every year. Plus the inevitable things like the brake overhaul and fuel lines that cost me £3K last year alone. Get what you want straight first, then look at what suits you best. []