Cayman and Boxster 718-6?

[Motorhead]

They're out again at the 'Ring:

https://www.motor1.com/news/360566/porsche-cayman-boxster-spy-video/

The Cayman definitely has PDK.

Jeff

 

[Daveotto]

A potential solution to the everlasting 4 v 6 sound debate (that is as boring IMHO as Brexit stay or leave) is to artificially attenuate the sound into the cabin as an optional extra. Interestingly enough a lot of BMW M cars and Audi S cars have adjustable internal sound attenuation to overcome improved sound insulation to meet customer demand for more engine noise.

BTW....was stopped in the local garage tonight by an owner of a 6 month old BMW i8 who was seriously looking to swap it in for a 718 Cayman S as apart from the improved handling of the Cayman he could not live with the sound of the i8

 

[Motorhead]

Dave,

It may surprise you to know that those of us who've been involved with vehicle refinement have been concentrating on interior and exterior "sound quality" for many years. Jaguar for instance were a very early adopter, and a small module is included in the ICE system of their cars to enhance the interior soundscape under different driving conditions: WOT, cruise, etc. It's much more difficult to achieve than you would think and requires super-fast signal processing, very accurate tacho-synchronising and properly balanced engine harmonic generation, something which Jaguar have achieved far more successfully than BMW from what I've heard.

An obvious advantage in using a sofware rather than a hardware-based approach is that it's much simpler and cheaper to implement, is also more robust (mechanical systems are prone to degredation and failure over time) and potentially can be tailored to an individual customer's preferences. As we head rapidly towards a battery-powered car world this approach will become even more important, when the masking effects of IC engines and the associated powertrain are removed and all we're left with is annoying road/tyre noise and wind noise. No doubt your BMW i8 contact would confirm that there's a long way to go on that front.!

Jeff

 

[Daveotto]

Jeff,

Was aware that all the major high end manufacturers are working on sound attenuation systems, was just offering it as a potential way forward for the 4 v 6 debate. As an aside I work/worked in the pharmaceutical device industry for over 30 years where we spend a lot of time engineering in "clicks" to satisfy end user and regulatory needs

As for what will happen regard external noise in electric cars as I am sure you are aware there is a already proposed EU legislation for electric vehicles to emit a sound at low speeds to warn pedestrians and as a cyclist its currently bloody dangerous being overtaken by a near silent Prius.

IMHO both internal and external noise solutions will eventually be electronic. My 718 Cayman S came with sports exhaust, which I don't like, but never hit the button except to demo it to friends. Money would have been better spent on LED headlights but I bought ex demo rather than new

Dave

 

[Motorhead]

Dave,

You'll be pleased to know that the EU-mandated Acoustic Vehicle Alert System (AVAS) is now a legal requirement for all new electric and hybrid vehicles with four or more wheels. However, it only needs to work at speeds of up to 13 mph which doesn't address fully concerns from us cyclists when out on the open road.

Jeff

 

[CLIFFWILKINS]

All very well and good if a 6 pot is coming back but at what cost? I imagine just under 70k for a box or cay you used to pay circa 40s k for a 6 pot.

It will take a lot of people out of the market financially I know the sound is different but I can still see a market for Boxster and Caymans in the 40s price bracket so obviously for similar performance it will use the 4 pot turbo.

 

[Twinfan]

Yep, F4T for the base and S for sure. The GTS maybe replaced by the six and therefore circa £60-65k, or it will be a new additional model at circa £65-70k. Plus options. Either way, it'll be second only to the GT4 and Spyder in the hierarchy and not a cheap car.

 

[Motorhead]

It's difficult to see the justification for having two versions of the GTS, so rumours that it will have the 6-pot engine seem logical, but it'll be expensive. Maybe Porsche will introduce a Cayman ST as a well-spec'd S?

The base Cayman is £44.8k, so still reasonably priced bearing in mind that sterling has fallen from ~1.4 Euros in 2015/16 to something approaching parity at the moment, and Boris is going to get it all sorted. []

Jeff

 

[Brian_Innes]

Yep, F4T for the base and S for sure. The GTS maybe replaced by the six and therefore circa £60-65k, or it will be a new additional model at circa £65-70k. Plus options. Either way, it'll be second only to the GT4 and Spyder in the hierarchy and not a cheap car.

David,

As a satisfied owner of a 2019 (GPF) 718 Cayman GTS, I would not be in the least tempted to change this superb car for a 982 Cayman 6 GTS with inferior torque and road legal speeds drivability, for something only with a more appealing engine sound.

If Porsche do indeed embark upon that route for the GTS model, I would suggest its destination is for the USA market exclusively where emission regs are different.

If on the other hand Porsche do decide, as you have indicated, and abandon the superb 365bhp/430Nm 4-pot for the GTS model, I shall be bitterly disappointed.

I hope Boris can sort this out.........

Brian

 

[Twinfan]

Non-one's forcing you to change your car, Brian. I'm sure you can continue to drive the one you have you know []

In Henry Catchpole's interview with Andreas Preuninger at Goodwood FoS, AP stated that Porsche developed the 4.0 in the GT4/Spyder to pass all current and known future EU emissions regulations. You can be sure that the new 718-6 (which will have the same engine in a different state of tune) will be a global model, the only question is whether it's the new GTS or a derivative.

 

[Motorhead]

Brian,

Dave's correct. The 6-pot 982s will need to be global models for Porsche to have a chance of recouping the significant development and tooling costs for the new engine, even if the n/a engine is built on the same production line as the two turbo engines.

Assuming it all goes ahead as anticipated I do find it odd that Porsche has found itself in the situation where it's has to do a partial about-turn, but I suppose the decision to keep the GT4 n/a has presented them with the opportunity to offer both n/a and turbo engines in the 982 chassis. It will be good for customers to have the choice.

Jeff

 

[Twinfan]

They u-turned on manual gearboxes in GT cars, so it's not unheard of for them to cater to customer demand. Having the NASP six available new in a mainstream model will be a huge USP for Porsche.

 

[Brian_Innes]

David and Jeff,

Ok, I get the fact that Porsche are looking at the global picture, but I'm struggling to get my head round why they would replace an already well developed 2.5 4-pot which incidentally in the 718 GTS PDK, according to magazine reports, out-accelerates the new 982 GT4 manual off the line.

Meantime I intend to hang on to my 718 GTS PDK in the hope that it becomes a sought after model by the track day modifiers. To my knowledge, Autocar magazine who are famed for their forensic approach to road test data, have not yet subjected a 2019 GPF 718 Cayman GTS PDK to a full road test. As a current owner, I can assure readers would find it an interesting performance comparison to the current 982 GT4 manual. Particularly with Michelin tyres fitted.

I'm taking a keen interest in the Cayman-6 developments, especially as Porsche are now testing PDK mules on the track. If Porsche retain the 2.5 GTS engine in its current state of tune, I'll also be interested to see where they slot it into the Cayman model line-up.

Brian

 

[Twinfan]

Ok, I get the fact that Porsche are looking at the global picture, but I'm struggling to get my head round why they would replace an already well developed 2.5 4-pot...

It would stay in the lineup in the S model if the GTS becomes a six, so it's not wasted development. They would replace it because it's not what a lot of customers want.

As a road car, Top Trumps statistics aren't always important - they certainly aren't for me. For example, my wife's Mountune tweaked Ford Focus RS mk3 is a faster car than my 981 Cayman GTS but I know which one I'd rather grab the keys to if I'm just going for a drive []

 

[Motorhead]

They u-turned on manual gearboxes in GT cars, so it's not unheard of for them to cater to customer demand. Having the NASP six available new in a mainstream model will be a huge USP for Porsche.

That's true Dave, but the transmissions are bought-in items from specialist companies who most likely adapt an existing product to meet Porsche's specification. Expensive? - yes, but developing a new engine in-house is a hugely expensive undertaking especially when it could have a relatively short life-span.

Anyway, the GT3 is very much a halo product in the 911 line, receiving elevated status where costs considerations don't appear to be the principal consideration.

I'm sure that a n/a F6 in the 982/718 line will be very well received - especially by the hacks..!

Jeff

 

[Twinfan]

It's still a U-turn though, Jeff!

I also think a readily available sports car with a 380bhp-ish NASP engine will be very successful given that it will be unique in the current market. It may even tempt some 911 owners to buy a proper sports car [8D]

 

[Motorhead]

I think you're right about demand for such a car Dave, especially if it retails at about the same price as the current GTS. Currently there's £14k of headroom between the GTS and GT4, so plenty of scope for pitching it around £65k max.

Although buyers could be tempted away from their precious 911s, don't rule out the possibilty that with some development the n/a engine could be integrated into the 992 chassis. Now that really would be a significant U-turn..!

Jeff

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Seems entirely logical to use the new GT4 / Spyder engine and create 718 Touring / R . A 718 with GTS / S running gear to slot below GT4 ? A less aggressive six cylinder model.

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Put the same engine in the 992 ? Now that IS an interesting proposition. 911 Touring [8|]

 

[Motorhead]

Laurence,

I think the 718-6 Cayman/Boxster twins with a detuned GT4 engine are likely to be all we'll see. I can't really see the case for a 718 Touring if it's just a de-winged, partially de-areo'd GT4.

I reckon installing the engine in the 992 would be relatively straightforward since you're losing the significant amount of space taken up by the twin turbos and the intercooler. There would still be a fair amount of work to be done on the intake and exhaust systems though, as well as aspects of cooling and electrical integration, and Porsche would need to decide on the state of tune so that it fits into the Carrera/Carrera S range - something around the GT4's 320hp would sound about right.

Jeff