Cayman 718 GPF Failure

[Paul-718gts]

Hi

Just sharing this information in case it ,ight be useful to others. Note I am not identifying the OPC They have been very helpful over this issue..

Car is a 2.0L Cayman PDK MY21. Registered 4/8/20. Mileage = 22.8K.

PART 1

Whilst the car was in the workshop today for other work to be done, I took the opportunity to ask for an OPF soot/ash loading test. The results of the diagnostics were:

K211 – Particulate filter bank 1, soot load calculated = 0.39%

K221 – Particulate filter bank 1, soot load measured = 0.00%

K230 – Particulate filter, oil/ash load calculated = 0.00%

K231 – Particulate filter bank 1 – oil/ash measured = 61.57%

Diagnosis and commentary – Soot levels are low so regenerations have probably been occurring, but exhaust temperatures may still be insufficient so ash is generated. [Due to the problems noted elsewhere in this thread I have been regularly following the instructions concerning regeneration described in the manual as if the particular warning light had actually come on]. Particulate warning light has never come on. OPC confirms that this light does NOT come on. [Interpretation – The manual is incorrect for our region].

Car may require longer runs in order to heat exhaust to required temperatures. Diagnostics reports numbers of:

Engine starts = 2148

....Motor operations at standstill = 641
....Motor operations between 0-3 miles = 631
....Motor operations 3-6 miles = 215
....Motor operations over 6 miles = 658

Engine runs = 2146 (discrepancy of 2 compared to number of starts)

....Between 0-10 minutes = 1199
....Between 10-30 minutes = 590
....Over 30 minutes = 357

PART 2

Intended to try a “dynamic” regeneration but an out of workshop time. Cost = 1 hours labour. Will book this for next week and will report the results then.



Cheers Alan

Hi Alan,
Do you think it would be possible to ask the OPC to put in writing their response regarding the situation with the warning lights ?
If this could be achieved it would be a big step in the right direction in helping us on one part of the jigsaw puzzle relating to the GPF challenges we are experiencing.
Did you purchase your car from new or was it used from a Porsche dealership ?
And if so did you purchase an extended warranty ?
Regards

Paul

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without Prejudice

Marks email reply from Porsche Readings Technical Department is absolutely ridiculous.

The car doesn’t need a diagnostic check, it just needs them to show him the soot light or message working on his car.

The dealers can not show us this light or message working, because it doesn't work on any of our cars.

I have spent over a year trying to find somebody who has seen this light / message working, even offered a reward.

The soot load warning light is fundamental to the correct running of our GPF cars.

Without this function working, the GPF has to rely on high exhaust temperatures durring hard acceleration runs to keep the soot at bay.

Ash should not be a problem on cars with such low mileages.

If Porsche Readings Technical department have any credibility at all, they will answer Marks request.

If they are not customer facing, they shouldn't be in this job, afterall its all about looking after customers isn't it.

One year on, and I have learnt a lot about how these cars don't seem to work.

I have been in the motor trade over 50 years, and never seen such shocking customer care from the dealers and Porsche Customer Care on this subject.

The last car I dealt with recently took over 5 months to get a resolution.

In all our cases, the news of the cost to replace the GPF filter always seems to come from a service advisor.

Service managers seem to be in the background, they should be at the front.
I say this because I was a Service manager for most of my career.

It's a big repair, and we have never had an explanation of whats caused this GPF to fail.

Something is very wrong with all this, we expect more from Porsche and the dealers.

The fact that this light or message has never been on our cars, confirms it must be a manufacturing defect.

To back this up we have on file an email from Porsche Customer Care that confirmed on one of our cars with
the trouble code P242F was in fact a manufacturing defect. And the GPF was replaced free of charge.

This statement from Porsche sets a precedent for future replacement of faulty GPF filters.

So why are we putting the owners of these faulty cars through this nightmare.

It needs to stop

Dave

 

[Scrounger]

From Dave's email above I feel it's now time to take it to the motoring press as in my previous post.

You may be surprised by the response you get.

Dan

 

[Paul-718gts]

Does anyone have any connections with someone in the motoring world or a u tuber ?
I would be happy to share my experience to date to get this resolved by the manufacturer.

 

[Scrounger]

email Auto Express consumer reporter

tom.jervis@autoexpress.co.uk or chris.rosamond@autoexpress.co.uk

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without Prejudice

Thought we should talk about Ash in GPF filters today, obviously this is causing us some issues at the moment.

Roughly 90% of ash in GPF filters is the product of the combustion of metal additives in the lubricating engine oil being burnt in the engine cylinders.

The rest comes from wear in the engine, additives in the fuel, and incombustibles from the air.

So ash cannot be removed totally by regeneration.

I spend alot of my time researching
the workings of GPF filters and reading data from testing laboratories who are constantly looking at GPF longevity.

There is a condition in the GPF called ASH BRIDGING, this phenomenon causes the walls of the Catalytic area to decrease, which increases the exhaust back pressure.

This then increases the need for more active regenerations to be carried out.

Active regeneration requires a controlled process that is started by the engine control unit. Information from the differential pressure sensor tells the control unit to put on the particulate soot loading light on the dashboard.
Instructing the driver to help in the regeneration of the filter, using deacceleration in the driving cycle.

This is well documented in the drivers manual.

Passive regeneration happens naturally durring high speed driving, with high exhaust temperatures.

The ASH BRIDGING occurs in the GPF filter when the ash particles bond together and block the channels in the filter core.

In my research I found that this testing laboratory injected small amounts of engine oil into the cylinders and measured the affects of the back pressure created in the GPF

They came to the conclusion that small amounts of the extra engine oil added to the crankcase fumes, which is redirected into the cylinders can prematurely increase the ash content in these GPF filters.

We have established 100% that on all of our cars the soot loading light or message has never been seen. So active regeneration on these cars may not be happening as it should do.

If the Dealers and Porsche Technical are right about these filters being blocked 100%, and they have to be replaced.

Then why is it happening again on the cars that have had filters replaced recently.

The ash percentage is increasing quicker over low mileages since replacement.

One of our cars is already at 55 %, and it was fitted this year.

Then it's 100% clear that without active regeneration by the car, these filters will block up prematurely.

Looking back at my first post on this forum on December 14th 2023, I spoke about the affects of what a faulty Air-Oil-Separator can do to these filters.

Durring this last year we have found that none of the dealers involved in our GPF faulty cars, had checked the function of the AOS.

When we asked several of them to check the AOS, they couldn't, because they didn't have a Porsche approved tool.

It's unforgivable that the cost to by this equipment is only around £58.00 including vat.

One dealer even said it would put on the engine light if it failed, so we don't need to check it.

We know from passed experience that when the AOS fails badly, you get lots of white smoke from the exhaust which can be very worrying.

And if you are really unlucky, you can get engine oil sucked into the cylinders which is really bad.

The AOS has no electrical feed back to the ECU, so it's under the radar.

So my question to Porsche Technical and their dealers, why are you not checking their Air-Oil-Separators for excessive vacuum readings.

Hopefully this week we will have a vacuum reading taken from a 718 Cayman thats just had one replaced recently.

We will be able to compare the readings against our readings on file, from lots of cars.

Had another phone call over the weekend, another 718 2019 car with a faulty GPF to sort out.

He should be okay as we have established that his soot light not coming on at all, is clearly a manufacturing defect and should be covered 100%.

And again, when he was sold this car, the sales chap didnt inform him about the emission device fitted to this car, that would require his attention if the warning light came on.

This story is not finished yet, will keep you updated

Dave

 

[Wrightrubber]

Without Prejudice

Excellent information Dave, great research again, this man deserves a medal!!
This needs to be escalated and it was a good suggestion of Dans to involve a journalist as the club seem to dismiss it as a small number of cars, well more and more are coming forward and let me tell you that when you get the call from the OPC to tell you that it's going to cost £7500 to replace it, it's your fault and oh it's not covered under your warranty it's a sickening and worrying feeling, a point that is clearly lost on Porsche.
The bottom line is this filter light/message has not been seen on any of the affected vehicles, it does not work and as this is part of the emission control device it is extremely serious.
John what do you think about involving a journalist? Would you be prepared to pick this up on behalf of the club and the affected members?

 

[Paul-718gts]

Without Prejudice

Excellent information Dave, great research again, this man deserves a medal!!
This needs to be escalated and it was a good suggestion of Dans to involve a journalist as the club seem to dismiss it as a small number of cars, well more and more are coming forward and let me tell you that when you get the call from the OPC to tell you that it's going to cost £7500 to replace it, it's your fault and oh it's not covered under your warranty it's a sickening and worrying feeling, a point that is clearly lost on Porsche.
The bottom line is this filter light/message has not been seen on any of the affected vehicles, it does not work and as this is part of the emission control device it is extremely serious.
John what do you think about involving a journalist? Would you be prepared to pick this up on behalf of the club and the affected members?

Was just going to ask the same question.
It's been over a week since we have had any updates from the club on this matter and although I am prepared to make contact with a journalist for the sake of both current and future owners, I agree with Wrightrubber and believe the club should take the lead on this and support the members.

In the last week we have had another 2019 car and a 2020/21 car approach David for support and advice on blocked GPFs.

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys &Girls

Without Prejudice

Hi, its me again

Just done some more research regarding GPF warning light information on Audi and VW petrol vehicles, 2019 onwards.

And I have spoken to Audi and Vw technical technicians to confirm this information is correct.

They have a working warning light on the dashboard for particulate soot loading.

When the soot loading is at a level that requires a regeneration the light comes on.

This leaves a trouble code P2463 00 (175), excessive soot accumulation.

It also leaves another trouble code P1A91 00 (047), indicator lamp active.

So these cars have a light that comes on the dashboard, that then leaves DTC codes in the engine management system. To prove the emission system is working and requires driver intervention.

This protects the life of the Gpf filter and maintains the exhaust system design of removing harmful particulate matter, so we can all breathe cleaner air.

Can we have this system on our cars please.

Regards
Dave

 

[Paul-718gts]

Was just going to ask the same question.
It's been over a week since we have had any updates from the club on this matter and although I am prepared to make contact with a journalist for the sake of both current and future owners, I agree with Wrightrubber and believe the club should take the lead on this and support the members.

In the last week we have had another 2019 car and a 2020/21 car approach David for support and advice on blocked GPFs.

Any updates from the Club ?
It’s coming up to a couple of weeks since the last update that indicated the club was trying communicate to Porsche GB.
Surely if the club is being ignored on this matter, a nice double spread in the monthly mag would get their attention ?
or as previously mentioned by a few members a conversation with a independent motoring journalist would get some traction

 

[Motorhead]

Paul,

We can all appreciate your frustration with the lack of progress on this matter, but I think it unrealistic to hope that the Club would broadcast your case in PP.

As individuals I reckon that you and the others who have posted on here would get better traction doing as Dan has suggested by contacting the motoring press with your case without involving the Club. The fact that more than one person has been affected by this issue could get you more attention.

Just my tuppence- worth of course.

Jeff

 

[Scrounger]

Agree Jeff.

Dan

 

[Peter_Bull]

Just my two penneth, but as there seems to be little traction with Porsche GB itself is it not time to contact Stuttgart direct? All this run around by OPCs and the club doesn't appear to be getting any answers.

Perhaps Dave could contact Porsche Club America and together the two clubs might at last persuade Stuttgart that there really is and issue.

After all, the USA is their largest market that they do not want to upset and whenever they speak to Stuttgart they jump high without asking!!

 

[ianthow]

Just my two penneth, but as there seems to be little traction with Porsche GB itself is it not time to contact Stuttgart direct? All this run around by OPCs and the club doesn't appear to be getting any answers.

Perhaps Dave could contact Porsche Club America and together the two clubs might at last persuade Stuttgart that there really is and issue.

After all, the USA is their largest market that they do not want to upset and whenever they speak to Stuttgart they jump high without asking!!

Peter, See this link to download a Porsche 2020 tech spec that mentions only that US cars at that point are fitted with "Two three-way catalytic converters and on-board diagnostics for monitoring the emission control system", no mention of a particulate filter.

https://press.porsche.com/prod/presse_pag/PressResources.nsf/Content?ReadForm&languageversionid=903318&archive=10&hl=modelle-techspec&level1id=1

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without Prejudice

Well had another busy week, with more phone calls from drivers with our GPF failures.

We still have quite a few cars stuck in Porsche dealers at the moment, waiting for authority to replace these filters they say are needed to fix these cars.

We have reported on earlier posts, that even after these new filters have been replaced, they are still having issues with the oil ash load percentage figures increasing over very small mileages covered.

This is very worrying, and would suggest that the diagnostic checks to replace the GPF, may not be correct.

I would like to share with you this current Dealer diagnostic log on the GPF system taken from one of our cars,
page 42, of the Val report , and explain what's wrong with it.

From the top.

K211 soat load calculated 0.00%, and K221 soot load measured 0.00%. We never seem to get any readings on these that make any sense at all.

K231 oil ash load measured 100%, this puts on your engine light with the permitted to drive warning light showing.

T255 exhaust temperature in the filter 222.04 degrees C
T251 exhaust temperature upstream of filter 18.16 degrees C.
On all the cars where we have seen the oil ash at 100%, these temperatures have more or less been the same.

The upstream temperature which is nearer to the Catalytic Converter always shows a very low reading.

Both these temperatures should be the same give or take 10%.

But remember they are calculated.

This next reading K251 particulate filter differential pressure sensor is the best one of them all.

It's showing a very low figure of 2.32 hPa.

The differential pressure sensors function is to monitor the soot loading of the GPF, and when the pressure is at a pre determined level the warning light should come on.

This warning light alerts the driver to start the active regeneration process, as described in the drivers handbook.

So you can clearly see that when this GPF filter measured value got to 100%, the engine light came on, showing a trouble code of P242F, (ash load exceeded), which is not shown on this page.

You would however expect to see alot higher differential pressure reading to confirm this.

Because when the exhaust is blocked, you would certainly have high exhaust back pressure, seen from the pressure sensor.

Not on any of the cars we have seen so far.

It's quite easy to check for exhaust back pressure on these cars, it can be checked at the pressure sensor.
If you disconnect the thicker rubber pipe to the sensor you can read actual pressure of the GPF with a pressure gauge.

Also you can also connect a vacuum gauge on to a vacuum take off on the inlet manifold and this will confirm if the exhaust is blocked.

You start with an idle reading, then increase the revs to 2K, and watch for the reading decreasing, this also confirms an exhaust restriction.

This week hopefully we will be testing the above on a car thats just been diagnosed with our P242F fault.

And I will update you on the results

Good news, we have had confirmation of vacuum readings on these cars after a new Porsche AOS was fitted.

From cold 40 to 45 inches of water (inH20)
Hot engine, 30 inches of water (inH20)

The hot reading is lower than we have seen previously, and bearing in mind that these separators have been superseded since our 2019 cars where built, this could be another area of concern.

Dave.

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Hi Guys & Girls

Without Prejudice

Some very good news this week, we had two Caymans at the start of the month with blocked GPF filters.

Thankfully the dealers and Porsche have given the go ahead to replace these filters free of charge.

This is fantastic news, as this authority usually takes months.

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

Porsche owning up to their responsibilities, is a clear acknowledgement that this is, and always has been a manufacturing defect on these cars.

So a big thank you to the dealers concerned and Porsche for supporting our drivers in their hour of need.

Dave

 

[Scrounger]

Great news Dave.

With Porsche agreeing to replace the GPF under warranty this, one would assume, has set the precedence.

I would hope that those who have had to pay out would have some form of recourse?

Dan.

 

[Motorhead]

Indeed, that’s excellent news Dave, and as Dan says let’s hope that past and future occurrences of 781 GPF failure will be dealt with sympathetically by Porsche UK.

It’s still early days of course, but very satisfying to hear that all your hard work has borne fruit, so well done for that.

Jeff

 

[Cyclemotor1958]

Thanks Guys
Yes hopefully things should be easier from now on, we still have some cars waiting for authority, will keep you posted as we go on.
Dave

 

[Wrightrubber]

Brilliant news Dave, well done! Your tenacity is amazing and has saved owners thousands of pounds and i'm sure they are extremely grateful. I personally can't thank you enough for the help you have given me. Keep up the good work.
Regards
Mark