Another Silver Rose for sale

[Richardbernau]

Hi All,

Either the market is dead flat or I have been totally unrealistic on price. Regardless, another price drop and I am now asking £8500 on Pistonheads. I am biased, but that seems like a bit of a bargain. Its the price of an "ordinary" turbo and there is still lots of talk about Silver Rose cars going up in value so the new owner can enjoy the possibility of appreciation.

The car will get a fresh 12 months MOT today/tomorrow and has just had 2 new rear torsion bars.

Thanks for looking,
Richard

 

[chrisg]

Looking through the discussion on this thread regarding modifications/ upgrades and changes in value, it occurs to me that there are numerous 911's with extensive heritage that have been massively modified for rallying, then rallycross then back to road spec etc - I'm sure there was an article on one at lydden hill a few years ago.

If it's good enough (changing the spec backwards & forwards...) for a 911 surely it can happen with a 944 ? After all none of the modifications are too difficult to return to factory spec/appearance and as pointed out - a 300bhp+ monster can be lurking in a 'standard' looking engine bay !

Chris

 

[pauljmcnulty]

If it's good enough (changing the spec backwards & forwards...) for a 911 surely it can happen with a 944 ? After all none of the modifications are too difficult to return to factory spec/appearance and as pointed out - a 300bhp+ monster can be lurking in a 'standard' looking engine bay !

The way I see it, the SR has one unique market, the collector of original cars. That's why they can make what seems silly money compared to an arguably "better" later, sympathetically improved, turbo in a more standard colour combination.

The people who want a 944 in their collection, and the SR is the model they want, seem to expect low owners, low mileage, completely original condition etc. I wonder if this isn't selling for as much because it's squeaked over the 100K miles threshold? The collector's market isn't something I really understand personally, and it does seem irrational sometimes!

 

[simkin911]

I like these cars however they don't always command a premium. A very nice SR went unsold in NI at circa £5k (previously belonged to Hilux) within the last year. The owner ended up taking it 'home' to NZ with him from memory.

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

If it's good enough (changing the spec backwards & forwards...) for a 911 surely it can happen with a 944 ? After all none of the modifications are too difficult to return to factory spec/appearance and as pointed out - a 300bhp+ monster can be lurking in a 'standard' looking engine bay !

The way I see it, the SR has one unique market, the collector of original cars. That's why they can make what seems silly money compared to an arguably "better" later, sympathetically improved, turbo in a more standard colour combination.

The people who want a 944 in their collection, and the SR is the model they want, seem to expect low owners, low mileage, completely original condition etc. I wonder if this isn't selling for as much because it's squeaked over the 100K miles threshold? The collector's market isn't something I really understand personally, and it does seem irrational sometimes!

Agree Paul

I am wanting a SR but will wait until I can get one that is exactly right for me, even if I have to pay a premium price for it.

Musts are : originality, low miles, low owners, standard specification, Full service history, unmolested, all parts present and correct/working and still on its original panels.

This may be a lot to ask but I'm not in a rush to part with my cash unless the car is the right one. []

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K


Agree Paul

I am wanting a SR but will wait until I can get one that is exactly right for me, even if I have to pay a premium price for it.

Musts are : originality, low miles, low owners, standard specification, Full service history, unmolested, all parts present and correct/working and still on its original panels.

This may be a lot to ask but I'm not in a rush to part with my cash unless the car is the right one. []

Martin

I'm really interested to know why all these things are important and worth a premium? - It's a serious question. Do these sorts of things matter for say a 2.7RS? - maybe originality/parts present & correct but what about the rest?

I'm going to have a look at this car next week - I think it looks pretty good although there are a few things that need sorting.

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: edh

ORIGINAL: MartinRS2K


Agree Paul

I am wanting a SR but will wait until I can get one that is exactly right for me, even if I have to pay a premium price for it.

Musts are : originality, low miles, low owners, standard specification, Full service history, unmolested, all parts present and correct/working and still on its original panels.

This may be a lot to ask but I'm not in a rush to part with my cash unless the car is the right one. []

Martin

I'm really interested to know why all these things are important and worth a premium? - It's a serious question. Do these sorts of things matter for say a 2.7RS? - maybe originality/parts present & correct but what about the rest?

I'm going to have a look at this car next week - I think it looks pretty good although there are a few things that need sorting.

The 2.7RS is a unique car so really can't be compared to any 944 or most other Porsches.

But going back to your question, I would only value a Silver Rose at a premium or even on a par with a main production 250bhp Turbo if it was in standard unmolested form.

They are a limited run car (quite rare but not unique) and what makes them Special is the colour/interior/body shell/suspension.

For me it needs to be low mileage etc. otherwise I can't see the benefit of paying more than a standard Turbo.

 

[simkin911]

Arguably, a non Silver Rose Turbo S is a rarer beast and could command a greater premium given the correct colour / interior combo as well as ticking all the other boxes.

 

[MartinRS2K]

ORIGINAL: simkin911

Arguably, a non Silver Rose Turbo S is a rarer beast and could command a greater premium given the correct colour / interior combo as well as ticking all the other boxes.

Agree they are rarer but the Silver Rose although not to everyone's taste will be the more collectible car in the future IMO []

 

[edh]

I'm trying to understand the "collector" mentality - fsh for example - why would that be important? And low owners? I can see that in a 5 year old car, but does it matter so much in a 25 year old car?

Ok the 2.7rs is an extreme example, but there's plenty of other limited run porsches that are sought after without satisfying all your conditions. Don't people say "buy on condition"?

From what I can see this car is almost standard spec anyway, bar some cosmetics , airbox and the boost control. Replacing the aircon would be a fairly costly enterprise. It has the colour / interior / shell / suspension etc..

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Agree they are rarer but the Silver Rose although not to everyone's taste will be the more collectible car in the future IMO

Agreed. Right or wrong, it's a model that has an iconic status as a collectable car, but has to be the best of the rarest to make it's top price. Hence low miles, originality, completely missing the reason Porsche built the flippin' things, lol! [&:]

Nearest comparison, I guess, would be the 997 with the fuchs and the duck tail? No real reason it's better than a far cheaper 997, but in 20 years where would your money be? Or a Boxster Spyder: less practical in the UK, but again has a status way above a "normal" Boxster.

I'd bet that in 20 years time a one-owner, low-miles, original Boxster Spyder will be worth ten times an average miles, silver with black interior, 987?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I'm trying to understand the "collector" mentality - fsh for example - why would that be important? And low owners? I can see that in a 5 year old car, but does it matter so much in a 25 year old car?

I agree, I don't have the cash myself to treat cars as objects to be shut away and not used!

Think Jay Leno. Would he buy a 944 because it's all he can afford, or to drive it 10K miles a year? No, he'd buy it to add to his trophy cabinet, and it absolutely has to be the most original to match the other cars in his collection.

A missing stamp in the book means far more to this type of car than to one you'd buy to use. Things like mileage, owners, history are irreplaceable, unlike engines or suspension. It's a type of top-trumps for people who don't use the cars, but get pleasure from owning the most unobtainable, near-perfect, version.

At least that's how I see it. [&:]

 

[edh]

but that's not what drives all the prices is it? Look at the 964RS for example - a car that is still used by many owners as intended, but soaring way above the 964C2 in price, even for high mileage, many owners examples.

 

[Ewan]

Seems good value to me. Is there a better SR available at this price? No.

Turning it back to standard and selling it as "original unmolested spec" would help/add value.

If I was about to spend circa £8500 on a turbo, I'd certainly start with this one at the top of my list, whether or not I was originally after an SR.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

but that's not what drives all the prices is it? Look at the 964RS for example - a car that is still used by many owners as intended, but soaring way above the 964C2 in price, even for high mileage, many owners examples.

No, and there's no logic to car prices. Look at that big auction recently, where a pretty ordinary Mk3 Escort made an amazing amount of money, yet some of the classic stuff failed to meet reserve. My neighbours RS1800 isn't half the car a decent S2 is, yet it's worth 3 or 4 times the value. If you want to buy a Metro, get one owned by Lady Diana Spencer, not one with a perfect history that was owned by the local primary school teacher.....[&:]

I don't know 964RS prices, but wouldn't a one-owner, original, low-mileage one be worth a lot more than one that's had 8 owners, covered over 100K miles, and had repairs or restoration? I guess some Porsches actually gain value by having race provenance, or racing driver owners. 944s don't fit that category yet.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Ewan

Turning it back to standard and selling it as "original unmolested spec" would help/add value.

- but what a shame to lose 70 hp/torque and boost below 3500 rpm...

 

[MartinRS2K]

'If' I find the right SR for me it will be driven and used in the Summer months but I would much rather pay more for a low mileage car that has a comprehensive history and doesn't need any work done to the cars bodywork or interior etc.

My 2 Porsches both get used, but as they both only have 50k miles on them 1500-3000 miles a year is going to keep the mileage low in the coming years.

You cannot replace or replicate originality, service history or condition. Yes you can restore a high mileage, high owner, low history car, but at the end of the day it will still be a high mileage car with little history and lots of owners and that is where it will be priced.

If you want an everyday or weekend 944 Turbo to blast about the A roads and possibly on track then I would go for a well sorted car with recent history showing that it is mechanically sound and if it has been restored then that wouldn't bother me as I would be buying a car for the purpose of ragging it around and not worrying too much about the value in 2-3 years time.

A comparison is buying houses..... Some buy old ones (at a cheaper price) and renovate them to their tastes, some buy new as they need no maintenance and have a warranty and others buy houses that have been well looked after and need minimal work to make into their own home. I fall into the latter category []

 

[Richardbernau]

I may be arguing against myself here , but I don't think the SR cars will ever be true collector cars. In my mind they they are pretty much the best of the 944Ts to drive (right combo of options, no sunroof and LW wheels) and the rarity should just give them a small price premium over an "ordinary" car. I kind of think, if you were going to get a turbo, why wouldn't you try to find a SR so you have something a little bit special and that possibility of a small amount of appreciation or at least value preservation (unless you can't live with the interior). There is not enough that is different about them to make them a real collectors car IMHO, but its still nice to know you have something a little bit rare and other Porsche people do notice it and appreciate it.

Anyhow, I admit to completely not getting the collector mentality, so what do I know. If a buyer cannot see how easy it would be to turn my car back to original, then they are frankly a tiny bit dim. At the price I am asking now, you could just hand it to your local indie and it would be done in a week or so:

- change indicators and steering wheel (included with car)
- stick on side trims
- hide EBC in glovebox
- fit OE airbox
- repaint wheels

Granted the air con is a bigger job, but its been removed from the bulkhead forwards, so its not that hard. I am hoping to have a full air con system available for sale with the car, but that hasn't happened quite yet.

Thanks for the positive comments in any event - someone just needs to buy the car now...

 

[GlennS]

ORIGINAL: Richardbernau

I may be arguing against myself here , but I don't think the SR cars will ever be true collector cars.

I agree, I don't think any 944 ever will be. However, you have to understand the current market. Much like the late 80s / early 90s there's a classic car bubble going on. Houses don't seem like great investment and stocks and shares are barely moving. People are scrabbling around for whatever could loosely be described as "collectible" and "an investment" and buying them. Many of these people are only peripherally (if at all) interested in the cars.

The late 80s / early 90s bubble burst and where you were paying £70k for a rough E-type one week you couldn't shift a decent one for £30k the following week. Hopefully the speculators will catch a cold again this time.

 

[edh]

That's true Glenn - and yet the prices of 944's haven't moved really. i wonder about 928's? i don't ever look at their prices.
The "bubble" money is chasing the 50k, 150k cars, where I guess the returns may be worth the bother. 996 GT3 is pretty flat as well, but must surely be due for a rise.