3.0 944 turbo

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly

Hmmmnn, not sure I want to be £15k + into a car worth a few k less.

Looks like you have come to the right conclusion then....dont build a 3.0 turbo! At least not a bells and whistles version.

That was never an option, seems like the last 50 bhp is what costs all the money.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly

Hmmmnn, not sure I want to be £15k + into a car worth a few k less.

Looks like you have come to the right conclusion then....dont build a 3.0 turbo! At least not a bells and whistles version.

That was never an option, seems like the last 50 bhp is what costs all the money.

Always does, always has. Rule of thumb for tuning cars/ bikes/ boats every extra hp costs more than the last and the increase is exponential.

 

[George Elliott]

Is the temptation also exponential......

seems so to me[8|]

George
944t

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly



Hmmmnn, not sure I want to be £15k + into a car worth a few k less.

Looks like you have come to the right conclusion then....dont build a 3.0 turbo! At least not a bells and whistles version. Others such as James O have done it for a lot lot less and probably less than a 2.8 built by someone else.

Are you still saving your original 968 engine for a rainy day ?.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly



Hmmmnn, not sure I want to be £15k + into a car worth a few k less.

Looks like you have come to the right conclusion then....dont build a 3.0 turbo! At least not a bells and whistles version. Others such as James O have done it for a lot lot less and probably less than a 2.8 built by someone else.

Are you still saving your original 968 engine for a rainy day ?.

Not so much a rainy day, I just don't want to part with it for less than about £2k as its very rare to find such a low mileage one these days and as its my old engine I know how good it was and the history etc. For less than that its worth more to me as a spare bottom end and and a 16v head to go on my turbo engine when I can be bothered to change the pistons and make up an intake. Had a a few cheeky offers and a couple of genuine ones who later did not need it due to misdiagnosis, 968 engines rarely fail hence why I still have it. I know sods law will be as soon as I sell it I will need it for some reason!

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly


Are you still saving your original 968 engine for a rainy day ?.

Not so much a rainy day, I just don't want to part with it for less than about £2k as its very rare to find such a low mileage one these days and as its my old engine I know how good it was and the history etc. For less than that its worth more to me as a spare bottom end and and a 16v head to go on my turbo engine when I can be bothered to change the pistons and make up an intake. Had a a few cheeky offers and a couple of genuine ones who later did not need it due to misdiagnosis, 968 engines rarely fail hence why I still have it. I know sods law will be as soon as I sell it I will need it for some reason!

I'd like to know what value you'd put on the short engine if you decided to part with it, dont think I've seen a 968 or S2 bottom end for sale recently. Also what exhaust valves would you use if you went 16v.

 

[333pg333]

Some good posts in here. I'll add to this that I've seen probably the extremes in 3L builds. One being very expensive and another being pretty cheap. Not Hartech cheap but cheap by comparison to most 3L builds and especially as this one is a 16v build. I would guess that it owes the builder less than $10k in Oz dollars. Mainly because some of the parts were already available and also as he is a Porsche mechanic he was able to do all the work himself including marrying S2 block to turbo exhaust manifold, intercooler pipes and other custom bits. The motor was from a Japanese LHD S2 that we bought cheaply but it was in excellent condition. I basically got the body parts and he got the motor/electrics. He then used his Vitesse Stage 3 software and had it reprogrammed by Vitesse for the new application and used my old Vitesse stage 5 turbo. It's a shame that he hasn't dyno'd it yet. I do keep prompting him. I would guess that it's pushing out 450bhp at 23psi on E85, maybe more. Couple this with some Moton suspension and Hoosier slicks sees him running around the track faster than a modified 2010 GT3 RS in his road going '86 with all the stock interior a/c p/s etc...So in reference to Thom saying that for the money put into a car with relatively little resale value, you are still able to achieve excellent results and embarrass much more expensive machinery...or their wealthy owners in any case. [] (For those that haven't seen the video of this car in action: enjoy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkC4n8TqkYA )

The other extreme is my saga of a 3L build which will cost waaaaay more than Sean's turbo S2 and is only an 8v motor. According to the builder when I spoke to him this morning he said he's run it this week up to 18psi on conservative ign settings and it's "Well North of 500hp" so that's promising. However will the extra hp transfer to $$$ well spent and seconds less on the track, that remains to be seen.

The moral of my story is that if you basically are tempted by the extra capacity I have to say that it is quite intoxicating and if you essentially wanted it for a car that was mostly used on the road, then it could be done with a relatively modest budget and be safe. After that, well you're entering dangerous waters....at your own risk!! []

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly


Are you still saving your original 968 engine for a rainy day ?.

Not so much a rainy day, I just don't want to part with it for less than about £2k as its very rare to find such a low mileage one these days and as its my old engine I know how good it was and the history etc. For less than that its worth more to me as a spare bottom end and and a 16v head to go on my turbo engine when I can be bothered to change the pistons and make up an intake. Had a a few cheeky offers and a couple of genuine ones who later did not need it due to misdiagnosis, 968 engines rarely fail hence why I still have it. I know sods law will be as soon as I sell it I will need it for some reason!

I'd like to know what value you'd put on the short engine if you decided to part with it, dont think I've seen a 968 or S2 bottom end for sale recently. Also what exhaust valves would you use if you went 16v.

I would have to think about the bottom end price but it would be over £1k if I was to split it, simply because I value it as a spare bottom end in the event of my engine suffering from scoring if something goes wrong. I know what I would have to pay if I had to source one from a breaker of the same quality off a low mileage car.

If I went 16v I would use the standard exhaust valves as it would be a higher compression (9.0:1) low boost setup (15psi) as with the 16v its easy to make good power at lower boost levels due to the flow capacity of the head and the variocam can be retained for a wide torque curve.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly



I'd like to know what value you'd put on the short engine if you decided to part with it, dont think I've seen a 968 or S2 bottom end for sale recently. Also what exhaust valves would you use if you went 16v.

I would have to think about the bottom end price but it would be over £1k if I was to split it, simply because I value it as a spare bottom end in the event of my engine suffering from scoring if something goes wrong. I know what I would have to pay if I had to source one from a breaker of the same quality off a low mileage car.

If I went 16v I would use the standard exhaust valves as it would be a higher compression (9.0:1) low boost setup (15psi) as with the 16v its easy to make good power at lower boost levels due to the flow capacity of the head and the variocam can be retained for a wide torque curve.

Thanks for the info, the block would be a good buy for a basic Hartech type build (with rods), and assuming the bores are compatible combined with your redundant 8v pistons a great buy [] []. Regarding exhaust valves the only 16v turbo reference I have is the Sierra Cosworth engine from the 80's, they were relatively low compression and boost but had the sodium filled ex valves, if the 968 ex valves are the usual 2 piece construction I would think for turbo use they could have a limited life span.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: pauly

ORIGINAL: nick_968

ORIGINAL: pauly



I'd like to know what value you'd put on the short engine if you decided to part with it, dont think I've seen a 968 or S2 bottom end for sale recently. Also what exhaust valves would you use if you went 16v.

I would have to think about the bottom end price but it would be over £1k if I was to split it, simply because I value it as a spare bottom end in the event of my engine suffering from scoring if something goes wrong. I know what I would have to pay if I had to source one from a breaker of the same quality off a low mileage car.

If I went 16v I would use the standard exhaust valves as it would be a higher compression (9.0:1) low boost setup (15psi) as with the 16v its easy to make good power at lower boost levels due to the flow capacity of the head and the variocam can be retained for a wide torque curve.

Thanks for the info, the block would be a good buy for a basic Hartech type build (with rods), and assuming the bores are compatible combined with your redundant 8v pistons a great buy [] []. Regarding exhaust valves the only 16v turbo reference I have is the Sierra Cosworth engine from the 80's, they were relatively low compression and boost but had the sodium filled ex valves, if the 968 ex valves are the usual 2 piece construction I would think for turbo use they could have a limited life span.

A couple of people that me and Pat are in touch with on Rennlist have used the factory exhaust valves on the 16v head without problems to date but you could always have some made. Re the 8v pistons, I don't actually know for sure if they work with standard rods or only with the Carillo rods, but maybe Pat or Thom know the answer to this. If you are really handy I still have a spare brand new bare block, the sister block to the one I used for my build with the same bore sizes that are matched to my pistons, but you need to be pretty handy to build up a bare block from scratch.

 

[George Elliott]

I always regarded the blue oval products as limited life span, especially with a turbo. How did they generate such a following with such harsh engines, and panel gaps like an average dog kennel?
How could a Golf Mk2 and a front w/d Escort ever have been considered competitors!
Amazing, - still, the buying public eventually saw the light, and the focus was aptly named.
George
944t

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: nick_968

A couple of people that me and Pat are in touch with on Rennlist have used the factory exhaust valves on the 16v head without problems to date but you could always have some made. Re the 8v pistons, I don't actually know for sure if they work with standard rods or only with the Carillo rods, but maybe Pat or Thom know the answer to this. If you are really handy I still have a spare brand new bare block, the sister block to the one I used for my build with the same bore sizes that are matched to my pistons, but you need to be pretty handy to build up a bare block from scratch.

Appreciate the suggestion re the new block but sourcing compatible parts to complete the build is a bigger project than I want to take on, a set of Carillo's wouldn't be out of the question though.

 

[TTM]

I don't think the "usual" 8V Mahle pistons would work with the 16v head because the 8V head and the 16V head have different squish areas.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: TTM

I don't think the "usual" 8V Mahle pistons would work with the 16v head because the 8V head and the 16V head have different squish areas.

A 16v was never in my plans, I'd want the engine to look original.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: pauly
A 16v was never in my plans, I'd want the engine to look original.

Nevermind, I was replying to Nick.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: TTM

ORIGINAL: pauly
A 16v was never in my plans, I'd want the engine to look original.

Nevermind, I was replying to Nick.

No problem, he has mentioned changing the pistons for 16v earlier in the thread.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: TTM

I don't think the "usual" 8V Mahle pistons would work with the 16v head because the 8V head and the 16V head have different squish areas.

I know the pistons we have don't work with the 16v head unless you machine them, but I was not sure if they worked in the 8v head situation with standard rods or if you need Carillo rods as I bought mine as a set with the rods. Do you have factory rods or aftermarket?

 

[TTM]

Rods are irrelevant, they all have the same offset.

 

[u63af]

Right guys.

I now have a 968 block with crank and a 2.7 head. Would it be safe to use the early 944 t rods (and are the early ones best other than aftermarket)?

Is it easy enough to get the pistons to match?

Next option is whether to go steel lined or use original liners?

So many options..........!

I just want a solid reliable engine for some track and road use.

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: u63af

Right guys.

I now have a 968 block with crank and a 2.7 head. Would it be safe to use the early 944 t rods (and are the early ones best other than aftermarket)?

Is it easy enough to get the pistons to match?

Next option is whether to go steel lined or use original liners?

So many options..........!

I just want a solid reliable engine for some track and road use.

Is it the 968 block from Ireland that was on ebay ?, if so I seem to remember it had one liner fitted already, do you know if the liner is Alusil ?.