Alzen ... Converted Cup For Sale

carreraboy · Jun 6, 2013

http://www.fa-automobile.com/detail-vente.php?car-for-sale=Porsche-964-964-carrera-2&id=44&v=3278#

I have tracked the third car to germany which has been converted apres Alzen wide Body (Mine orginal Alzen) this must be the third car I was looking narrow body with 350BHP engine?

RSGulp · Jun 6, 2013

Buy it Des. You can never have too many!

davidcross · Jun 9, 2013

Spotted your car at Bromley car show today DES, looked fantastic. Must say it looked like it needed a clean!!! I spotted the noise test sticker still on the windscreen. Where u been on track with it???

carreraboy · Jun 9, 2013

Brands last wednesday ... yes needs a clean .....

davidcross · Jun 9, 2013

Good stuff there is OPL at brands next Tuesday evening FYI .

carreraboy · Jun 10, 2013

Thanks for the heads up David .... but think Spa beckons to fully exploit the car, Brands Indy a bit too tight ....

Back to Topic, having now spoken to the dealer, this would appear to be neither a Porsche or Alzen chassis number car. Although built by Alzen Motorsport, from a 964 C2 Car with a Cup Body. Would think bits taken from a Cup Car with later addition of 3,8 spec engine.

So mine is the only original Alzen build as it left Alzen with the exception rear spoiler. Obviously with the most expensive build. The sister car left the factory narrow body with a 3,6 normally aspirated engine, now wide body with 3,8. The other car as above.

DSCBoy · Jun 11, 2013

Have you managed to trace your shell number to an original cup car yet Des?

Still mystified why my contact told me these cars were built from the spare shells at the end of the season rather than the race cars which he told me were in collections in Germany (along with the famous green cup car that so many people claim to own).

Impressed with your detective work so far Des.

But this latest car has neither a Porsche NOR Alzen chassis number??? How is it registered then?
Cheers
Rick

carreraboy · Jun 12, 2013

Hi Rick .... this is the reply regarding the third car. It would appear not to be an original Cup thus not raced. The chassis number baffles me. maybe a German TUV for some reason, no doubt someone will be along soon, Hacki?

I am making further progress, with this information it would seem that only two Cup Cars, still narrowing down between car number 02 and 15. As car 15 has NO or never has had an airjack like aperture on the the left hand side of the scuttle and the sister car has can only assume it's the 15 Car, still retaining Alzen shifter, wheels, pedals etc .... My shell number is definitely a cpmplete Cup Car either 91 or 92. It has certainly seen action with the usual front PU Repair, done well.

The car is totally original as left Jurgen Alzen late 1992, with customer spec 965T2 transmission and engine. It did leave however on original front Cup suspension which Paul McLeaN has replaced with 993RS and rear deck spoiler replaced with carbon RSR 3,8. Its was registered in Germany according to the Fahzerbriefen as a Turbo RS, as RUF do with CTR etc ...

Maybe "Jurgen Alzen Motorsport Turbo RS" is the correct and original description .... as my DVLA V5.

Below reply I had from Fabrice ....

1) Full chassis number:
PWCCRS00001192
Manufactured by J.Alzen, Betzdorf

2) The year of manufacture
1992

3) When the car was upgraded
It was a normal 964 chassis covered with a factory Cup-Body
Changed about 5 years ago to 3.8L. Engine has about 6000km

DSCBoy · Jun 13, 2013

Very cool, and great detective work! But I still don't understand why Alzens would need to put new chassis numbers on the cars if the original ones didn't still exist? Have you managed to work out why they did that?

carreraboy · Jun 13, 2013

As explained in a previous post, the German TUV did not recognise a Cup Car as a road homologated car unlike the N-GT. Thus chassis numbers were removed, although I have yet to search under the light yellow paint. Thus Jurgen Alzen Motorsport chassis

JA 0010000000965T2

was born the first and seemingly highest spec build of the three. The fazerbriefinen does refer to all this ....

Hacki · Jun 13, 2013

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

As explained in a previous post, the German TUV did not recognise a Cup Car as a road homologated car unlike the N-GT. Thus chassis numbers were removed,

I doubt that. Porsche (the factory) asked for the official permission to have Cup cars street legal on the 15th Dec. 1989 and received the permission on the 28th Dec 1989. So, having a street legal, TÃœV approved Cup car was possible right from the beginning.

Maybe Alzen wanted to be a manufacturer (like Alpina, based on BMW) or it was simply easier to have a "Alzen" car TÃœV approved than all the modifications bit by bit. Or Porsche refused to issue all the permissions Alzen would have needed from the manufacturer for a TÃœV test, if the car had kept name and VIN by Porsche. Who knows? Probably Mr Alzen himself.

Did anyone find out yet, if the original VINs (of the Alzen Cup cars) are still out there? (And how often?)

Hacki

DSCBoy · Jun 14, 2013

I was told they were but not where... I was also told that the Olaf Manthey Cup car is in a collection and NOT one of the ones that are currently claiming to be it as well which I thought was quite controversial until I saw an article somewhere recently saying the same thing...

carreraboy · Jun 14, 2013

ORIGINAL: Hacki

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

As explained in a previous post, the German TUV did not recognise a Cup Car as a road homologated car unlike the N-GT. Thus chassis numbers were removed,

Click to expand...

I doubt that. Porsche (the factory) asked for the official permission to have Cup cars street legal on the 15th Dec. 1989 and received the permission on the 28th Dec 1989. So, having a street legal, TÃœV approved Cup car was possible right from the beginning.

Maybe Alzen wanted to be a manufacturer (like Alpina, based on BMW) or it was simply easier to have a "Alzen" car TÃœV approved than all the modifications bit by bit. Or Porsche refused to issue all the permissions Alzen would have needed from the manufacturer for a TÃœV test, if the car had kept name and VIN by Porsche. Who knows? Probably Mr Alzen himself.

Did anyone find out yet, if the original VINs (of the Alzen Cup cars) are still out there? (And how often?)

Hacki

It would seem so, my car is far from standard Cup and Alzen as you say with chassis number one were making their mark in the car builders World.

Rick please expose these Cup Cars you know off ..... are they in a humidified bunker with Nazi gold[

]

Nick_USA · Jun 14, 2013

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

As explained in a previous post, the German TUV did not recognise a Cup Car as a road homologated car unlike the N-GT. Thus chassis numbers were removed, although I have yet to search under the light yellow paint. Thus Jurgen Alzen Motorsport chassis

JA 0010000000965T2

was born the first and seemingly highest spec build of the three. The fazerbriefinen does refer to all this ....

So Des, what you are saying here in the same way RUF do modified cars today ALzen did this in the 80's.

RUF have to remove all the Porsche branding from their cars and are strictly speaking (and legally) no longer a Porsche, so in the same way does this mean your car isn't either.

[

]

jason · Jun 14, 2013

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

It would seem so, my car is far from standard Cup and Alzen as you say with chassis number one were making their mark in the car builders World.

How many Alzen chassis cars have there been?

ORIGINAL: Nick_USA

RUF have to remove all the Porsche branding from their cars and are strictly speaking (and legally) no longer a Porsche, so in the same way does this mean your car isn't either.

[]

Don't say that Nick or we'll have an Alzen register too [

]

carreraboy · Jun 15, 2013

ORIGINAL: Nick_USA

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

As explained in a previous post, the German TUV did not recognise a Cup Car as a road homologated car unlike the N-GT. Thus chassis numbers were removed, although I have yet to search under the light yellow paint. Thus Jurgen Alzen Motorsport chassis

JA 0010000000965T2

was born the first and seemingly highest spec build of the three. The fazerbriefinen does refer to all this ....

Click to expand...

So Des, what you are saying here in the same way RUF do modified cars today ALzen did this in the 80's.

RUF have to remove all the Porsche branding from their cars and are strictly speaking (and legally) no longer a Porsche, so in the same way does this mean your car isn't either.

[]

Hi Nick, hope to see you today at Fatboys ..... yes all Porsche reference had to be moved as a new Alzen Built car all in the Frazenenebrieffenen ..... all be it they left the shell number on the alloy bonnet!

Hi Jason, not sure of numbers, they have moved onto Ford GT now I think .... having chassis number 1 you would think might be a bit of Alzen history[

]

jason · Jun 15, 2013

So is the Porsche shell number not visible on the shell either Des?

Did they have to grind this out?

Didn't realise these modifiers had to go to such extreme lengths when branding a car under their name.

Makes sense I guess though!

carreraboy · Jun 15, 2013

I have the boonet number only ... not yet took the dash off or love box. But at the end of the day the car is what is an Alzen Turbo RS built on a maritime orginal 964 Carrera 2 Cup Car, either of the 1992 Team cars ..... Its original [

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carreraboy · Jun 16, 2013

From the shell it confirms a Complete Cup Car not a RS N-GT which some later reshells were or dare I say 3,8 RSR. Such was the abundance and keen house keeping at Werkes 1 they would shift what they had.