Waterpump - how often does it need replacing

[craiginuk]

Hi,

My recently aquired '87 944 Turbo is in for some work at the moment - at local indy. New power steering rack and to sort a few oil leaks. Turns out one of the leaks is from the balance shaft seal so it seems a good idea to do belts while they're in there. Fair enough as it is 4 years and maybe 10,000 miles since they've been done.

Only concern is the indy is now making noises about doing the waterpump "while they're in there" too. Was last done at 75,000 miles in 1998. Car is now on 115000 miles. I'd have hoped to get another few thousand out of it.

I know it's always good to do things while you're in there but they'll probably be in there in another 4 years or 10,000 miles or so. Car has no issues with overheating as I tested it thoroughly stuck in 7 hours of traffic on the M25 on my first drive in it

What are people's thoughts and experiences on this?

Craig

Ps - I'll put some pics up of the car when I get it back - forgotten what it looks like

 

[Lowtimer]

Just a case of how lucky you feel, really. You have a 14 year old pump that might make it to 18, or might not. The cheap insurance against a failure is to replace it while 90 per cent of the labour cost is already free on the back of the other work.

 

[craiginuk]

mmm - hadn't thought of it that way - I guess the first one was done after 11 years so maybe I am pushing it...Can't see any further evidence of it being done since then.

Hadn't thought of it as 14 years ago - my problem is my mind always thinks its about 2003. I look at 53 reg cars and still think they are new []

 

[robwright]

Here we go again!!! In my opinion and only mine I hasten to add check it when you change the belts and if looks or feels like it needs changing then change it. Others will tell you every other belt change. Waits for the obligatory water pump debate to start []

 

[craiginuk]

Aah - so this one has been done before. Sorry i couldn't find much when I searched.

Thanks Rob, I am also keen on going down route of inspecting when it's off. Will leave it to the indy to advise I guess. Was just wondering what sort of life others got from them.

 

[BlackMagic]

Mine was fine at 220,000 miles, but JMG said I should change it and I did.

The problem is not that the pump will fail and that you overheat. The comon pump failure is to jam and then cause the timing belt (which drives it) to break/jump/etc. ...... and for the valves to hit the pistons!!

When you think of the cost of fixing that, a new pump (even at £250+) is cheap insurance.

 

[Fat Albert]

I had mine done at 206,000 when I was having a belt change, it was less than £200 extra to have it done so I thought it was worth doing whilst they were in there

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: BlackMagic

The problem is not that the pump will fail and that you overheat. The comon pump failure is to jam and then cause the timing belt (which drives it) to break/jump/etc. ...... and for the valves to hit the pistons!!

When you think of the cost of fixing that, a new pump (even at £250+) is cheap insurance.

As said, are you feeling lucky (punk)?

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually had (or seen) a waterpump which has jammed like this? I haven't, and when mine failed the rotor had fallen off the shaft (which meant only adiabatic cooling, which wasn't very efficient.)


Oli.

 

[Lowtimer]

adiabatic

Are you another one with a secret aeroplane habit? It is normally only people with some form of connection to professional meteorology who know such fancy words []

 

[Diver944]

In years gone by we regularly heard of cars needing major engine work due to seized pumps. It is definitely less these days and I can't remember when we had the last one. Now it's debateable whether that is because the pumps are now more robust or people are more educated because we keep banging on about it.

I personally have my pumps changed at every other belt change so that will be roughly every 7-8 years. Most of the cost is the labour for the belt change so 'while you're in there' an extra £350ish every 7 years is worth it for me as opposed to a dead engine.

 

[Alpine]

I was told if it looks fine on a visual inspection then leave it alone. I've never changed mine in 7 years.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: Lowtimer

adiabatic

Are you another one with a secret aeroplane habit? It is normally only people with some form of connection to professional meteorology who know such fancy words []

Almost on this subject [&:] - and with apologies to the original poster - but to the aviators on the forum

If you only worked at airports within the UK and had to carry about 10Kgs of tools and an additional passenger would you fly?
What aircraft would you use? (with a reasonable budget a G5 would be nice ). Landing fees shouldn't be an issue, I might even be able to get a hanger.
DA42 looks good but is a lot more expensive to buy than some of the older twins (which has higher running costs?) and obviously as a twin needs more training expenditure.

Budget would come in part from saving in time relative to driving.
Sites are from Culdrose in the south to Kinloss in the North.
I am based in Bournemouth and would like to learn to fly, but wondering how practical/expensive it might work out.

At the other end of the scale I also considered homebuilt but figured I would struggle with the tools and am I right in thinking they are VFR only.

My brother is now a BA pilot and I could answer a lot of his theory questions when he was studying at cabair without any study - thought about doing the course myself but figured at 42 I might struggle to find a job at the end.

Cheers,
Tony

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

aeroplane stuff

Might be worth contacting Melv the 964RS guru. I know he's a flyer and knows quite a few other Porsche pilots too

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Lowtimer

adiabatic

Are you another one with a secret aeroplane habit? It is normally only people with some form of connection to professional meteorology who know such fancy words []

No, sorry. Just like long words.

(And I think I mis-used it in that context come to mention it! Such a system isn't adiabatic, it's just a convection-driven cooling loop.)


Oli.

 

[Lowtimer]

Tony

If you have to use an aeroplane for actual transport around the UK throughout the year, rather than just when it suits you in the summer, you need something with serious instrument flight capabilities, an autopilot, and two engines (because during a large part of the year you will be having to fly at night, and it is not a smart idea to spend a lot of time flying single-engined aeroplanes when you can't see where to land if the clockwork stops, and also because your mission profile will take you over a lot of heavily populated areas). If you are wanting to fly between major airports you will need a PPL, multi rating and instrument rating, because you will be flying IFR in Class A controlled airspace.

All of this will be very expensive and your training will require a heavy-duty time commitment, especially getting the instrument rating (the lesser IMC Rating won;t do as you will need to fly IFR in Class A airspace). Something like a DA42 Twinstar would give economical running costs at around £220,000 for a five year old one, and would suit your load requirements. The alternative approach is an old American twin from the '70s, like a Piper Aztec or Baron. Good aeroplanes but old. They cost little to buy but the running costs are very high.

I am only a puddle-jumper who occasionally wanders around the sky just for amusement rather than serious transport so can only give rough numbers. If you can budget around £40,000 a year for travel costs and have deep pockets for unexpected bills it is worth popping over to http://forums.flyer.co.uk, where some of the people flying more your type of mission will be able to give you a fuller appreciation.

Oh, and access to some of the busier airports, namely the four London ones, is likely to be a non-starter on grounds of slot capacity. But those might not be ones you need to get to, and there are alternatives like Denham and Biggin Hill near the larger London airports.

 

[Fat Albert]

At the other end of the scale if you just want to fly when the weather is good and in daylight (the rest of the time going by road) then having a share in an aircraft that is kept close to home can be a cheap, cost-effective option. If you assume that all of your fixed costs (insurance, hangerage, annual) can be atributed to your hobby, then for business you are only paying your hourly costs (fuel, engine fund, 50 hour check, etc) which can be as low as £100/hour in a typical 'Spam Can'. This will get you travelling at just over 100mph in a straight line which can actually work out the same/cheaper than going by road.
One of the chaps on the Flyer Forum lives in Gloucestershire and worked in Cambridge before he retired, so used to fly Kemble-Fowlmere on a Monday Morning and return on a Friday afternoon, leaving his aircraft to be rented out by the club in between to recover some of the costs. His journey was typically 45 mins each way rather than 3 hours by road. He also has a cottage on Alderney, so some Fridays his Wife would meet him at Kemble with the suitcases and they would go straight over there for the weekend!

 

[944Turbo]

Thanks guys, food for thought!
Tony

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: robwright

check it when you change the belts and if looks or feels like it needs changing then change it

This is the correct answer - you rely on the experience of an experienced Porsche mechanic.

The accepted wisdom used to be that it was changed with every belt, but this was because the pump was cheaper and the belts far dearer; making not changing a false economy. Now the belts and rollers are cheap and the pump three times as dear, so you do it when its needed.


Simon

 

[sulzeruk]

Hi all, i go by the golden rule of if the history of the pump and belts is unknown, change it. You can get a fairly accurate idea by how old the pump is by how much the small 90 degree water elbow is bowed at the front, the bigger the bow, the longer it has been on there. You can also see how similar the colour of the pump metal is to the block metal. If it looks similar and is fairly white or crusty, it may be the orginal! If you are in there already, sometimes it is best to bite the bullet and change. Also if there is any play at all in the pulley, it will get changed as a newly tensioned belt can destroy an iffy pump quite qucikly. At least you will also have piece of mind that you know it has been changed as well and you won't be kept awake at night! You can get OEM quality pumps from Germany for about £170 so not too bad.
Alasdair