Valuation advice please

[rcsalmons]

The Turbo S is best distinguished by the engine numbers (the M44/52 engine). The engine serial numbers for the Turbo S are:
[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]47J00001 - 47J01830[/size]
[font=arial,helvetica][size=-1]Thus, there were 1830 of the 250 hp engines made in 1988.[/size]

 

[DavidL]

Definitely D90s on the car in the pics. Don't know about the wheels on MO30 spec post S cars. Always a possibility - anyone got a 90/91 car with MO30 from new.
Mine isn't and doesn't so those that did could I suppose.
I still thought CS wheels were S only but I stand to be corrected.

 

[TTM]

'88 S and 89 turbo have CS wheels from new.
90 and 91 turbo have D90 wheels from new (those on the car shown here), with or without M030.

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: TTM

'88 S and 89 turbo have CS wheels from new.
90 and 91 turbo have D90 wheels from new (those on the car shown here), with or without M030.

Yup

My 89 had CS wheels (long since sold)

Virtually all 89 cars had M030 from standard, there are just a few exceptions to prove the rule [8|]

 

[Frenchy]

I said they "look" like forged wheels but after another good look i may be wrong, pretty sure all MO30 cars had forged wheels after all it is part of the suspension package the lighter wheel helping the suspension settings work correctly.
Turbo S cars are described as such on the V5, i have owned a late model 1990 Turbo with the wider turbo D90 wheels (non MO30)and a Turbo S with forged CS wheels, i do know the difference!
Depends where you live and what hourly rates you pay at a garage, a good independent up here will do a 12k service and belts, waterpump for less than 1k.................guaranteed,
(Depending on parts prices which are all over the place at the moment)

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: Frenchy
I said they "look" like forged wheels but after another good look i may be wrong, pretty sure all MO30 cars had forged wheels after all it is part of the suspension package the lighter wheel helping the suspension settings work correctly.
Turbo S cars are described as such on the V5, i have owned a late model 1990 Turbo with the wider turbo D90 wheels (non MO30)and a Turbo S with forged CS wheels, i do know the difference!

The forged wheels (CS) were standard fitment on the '88 S and '89 turbo, along with M030, but that does not necessarily mean the forged wheels were part of the M030 package - they were just part of the whole car!
As of the 1990 model year M030 was not standard equipment and the D90 wheels were the same between cars with M030 and cars without, as were the 928S4 front calipers.
It doesn't make much sense to have a definitive say at which parts were included in the M030 package as its content almost changed each year and also depended on the model (eg S2 or turbo).

I believe a difficulty in properly identyfing a late turbo lies in the "turbo S" label that was still used as of the 1989 model year, which doesn't make much sense as the non-S was not built anymore.

 

[Frenchy]

Thom a true Turbo S is a silverose, a friend has a 89 turbo with MO30 and is described as a Turbo on the V5,whereas my 88 non sunroof MO30 car is described as a Turbo S the Porsche technical bulletin which i have here for the Turbo S states that the forged wheels are part of the M030 package, think about it, the heavier D90 wheels will affect the suspension bump and rebound properties if fitted to the M03O suspension set up,
The later Turbos had wider D90,s fitted.
I have never seen a car with MO30 and D90 they always seem to come with CS wheels ?
Yes the 928 brakes were carried over along with stiffened front chassis legs and diff oil cooler and probably the AOR type gearbox, as stated i have owned a late model turbo and now own a special order black (silverose) Turbo S.
But it is a grey area and as long as you were willing to pay Porsche would give you whatever you were willing to pay for, hence the number of number of none "special colour" silverose cars that exist.
Customers had said they liked the car but not the colour or trim so gave the option on colour and trim choice.
The people who really know the reasons for all the differences are probably retired from Porsche now ?

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Depends where you live and what hourly rates you pay at a garage, a good independent up here will do a 12k service and belts, waterpump for less than 1k.................guaranteed,

Which is why we ask people to put their location in their profile! [][]

I always have to assume South-East rates of at least £50 per hour plus VAT unless the OP tells me that they live in an area that has cheaper rates.

Either way, would you really guarantee that a full 12K service and belts on a newly bought car would never come to more than £1K? [8|] There are always some surprises, my first standard service plus belts, rollers, steering column thingy and brake pipes was £800 on a lowly Lux.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: Frenchy
Thom a true Turbo S is a silverose, a friend has a 89 turbo with MO30 and is described as a Turbo on the V5,whereas my 88 non sunroof MO30 car is described as a Turbo S the Porsche technical bulletin which i have here for the Turbo S states that the forged wheels are part of the M030 package, think about it, the heavier D90 wheels will affect the suspension bump and rebound properties if fitted to the M03O suspension set up,

Well my friend, you are preaching a convert, but while the technical bulletin on the '88 turbo S did apply back in '88 it did not apply anymore as soon as the following year, as the initially limited mechanical spec of the turbo S was carried over for the '89 model year.
I know about D90 being about 0.5kg each heavier than CS wheels, I have a set of D90 for winter use and a set of CS for summer use.

ORIGINAL: Frenchy
The later Turbos had wider D90,s fitted.
I have never seen a car with MO30 and D90 they always seem to come with CS wheels ?

A friend had a '91 turbo with lots of optional equipments including M030 and yes it had the same 7.5"/9" D90 wheels as the '90/'91 cars that came without M030.

ORIGINAL: Frenchy
But it is a grey area and as long as you were willing to pay Porsche would give you whatever you were willing to pay for, hence the number of number of none "special colour" silverose cars that exist.
Customers had said they liked the car but not the colour or trim so gave the option on colour and trim choice.
The people who really know the reasons for all the differences are probably retired from Porsche now ?

While everything in PET is not completely true it clearly states the forged wheels (CS) were not available on '90/'91 turbo but rather the 7.5"/9" D90 instead - for each part in the "model" column on the right side is indicated which equipment said part belongs to. Luckily for us in this thread the wheel section is rather comprehensive & consistent.

To me the CS wheels were part of the turbo S package on the same level that M030 was part of it. While all '88S/'89 came both with M030 and CS wheels doesn't mean to me that CS wheels were part of the M030 package, but they were rather part of the turbo S package" instead.

 

[DavidL]

ORIGINAL: Frenchy

But it is a grey area and as long as you were willing to pay Porsche would give you whatever you were willing to pay for

I think that is probably the crux of the matter. There will be spec sheets from the time and no doubt if you look hard enough you'll find two that contradict each other!
If all the Silver Rose cars came with "that" interior then they wouldn't be held in quite such high esteem unless you are profoundly colour deficient.
It's probably reasonable that the CS came on the S cars but if you ordered MO30 on 89+ cars then there may have been some encouragement/enducement to spend a little (or a lot) more and have the lighter wheels. Defeats the object otherwise Sir - you can almost hear them say it!
My wheels came off an 88 S car but again it was a black/linen combo. I did try to buy the whole car but I failed.

 

[NeilW]

A real '88S will have option M758, which equates to "Special Edition Turbo S".

Frenchy, you make reference to a technical bulletin about the Turbo S. Is this the elusive "WKD 495 010" document referred to in the workshop manual? If so, I've previously tried, and failed, to obtain a copy via my local OPC. I'd be fascinated to see it though.

 

[Frenchy]

Neil,
Send me an e-mail to jimfrance@ukonline.co.uk and i will get a copy scanned and sent over (when i have time) mine is photocopied ! seems like the definitive answer to the wheel thing will never be answered.
A very good independent up here in West Cumbria ,no fresh coffee or fancy stuff, charges £35 ph he is a proper old style mechanic who fixes rather than replaces things a rare commodity nowadays.
Just been charged £25 to fit a new front wishbone to my Alpina as i did not have the time due to work ,£30 and a slab of Stella seemed fair to me ! []

 

[George Elliott]

Rich, on my '88 turbo S (according to the logbook), I have the Engine number 47J014xx, but the M758 code is not on the ID tag (which is original).
Jim I'd be interested in a copy of wkd 495 010 if you do not mind, george.elliott951@btopenworld.com.

I dont have the answer to the Turbo S subject but, my own theory on these cars is that, like all things, especially Porsche, they made it up as they went along. The 944T was a relative success from '85 launch. Then they introduced the "Turbo Cup" Series, and as the List price was hiked from mid £20k to £40k+ so there were (had to be) improvements in the spec.
The turbo S was an opportunity to Cash in on the Turbo Cup Series, and so in addition to say an '87 model you had changes such as:
ARB sizes
Hard syncro's 1st, 2nd
LSD
Adj Dampers
Big Brakes
Forged 7" /9" Rims
K26/8 turbo
and for the "Cash-in Project" came the Silver Rose Limited Run with a special colour scheme, (which I will admit I like, I recall seeing it at D.Lovetts when new and thought Wow!). These cars, per the Cup Cars, had no Sunroof, - the Cup cars must have come down the line in the factory at this time. This was a period of Product development & Market Growth

As stated above, there were those customers who ordered a turbo s with-out the Silver Rose colour combination. As the Cars were just a different colour, the parts list above stayed the same.

Following that period of Production, the Sunroof was re-introduced, and the Sports seat reappeared often with leather -1989. The 944t was now in a period of Cash Cow. As an aside, by this stage 959's were up to £500k........(from £150k)

Following that, 1990 sales were dropping and commercial pressure was building, plus the greens wanted Cat's fitted, so there was a need to strip some cost. The features above started to fall away, among them Wheels changed to Cast D90's, LSD's were dropped, Sports Seats were an option, Non adjustable dampers were cheaper.......A period of - the milk is drying up......

But to keep the customers coming back, the 968 rear wing was introduced on the 944. The Cow is tired in '91

The 968 was in their plans then so 944 development ended.

There were a few Turbo components lying around, so they were built into Cabrio's, and some engineer got an 8v head onto a few 968's......

There is one inconsistency, my old 220 car '86, had a lovely "thrum" under load, no 250 car I have driven (only about 4) has had it and I suspect the Rods changed - and maybe the production tolerances. Some one may be able to confirm this. The PET does not show this but then if the parts were interchangable it would not need to.
George

944t
964

 

[pauly]

I thought all the 250 bhp cars had an lsd, mine has.

 

[TTM]

Yes, all 250bhp cars have the gearbox with both LSD and the oil cooler (the gearbox type is AOR).

 

[Frenchy]

George,
I will get one scanned and sent shortly when time allows ! I also think the silverose colour is supberb but the burgundy "studio" trim and dashboard are just not nice ! IMO

 

[George Elliott]

Paul, Thom, - my mistake, I should not have included the Diff in the the components dropped after 1989.

James, much appreciated - thx
George
944t
964

 

[rcsalmons]

I have a 1988 Turbo S and it has the M758 option code. Also states Turbos S on the log book.

This may be of interest to some http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/pit/4786/

Rich

 

[TTM]

Is there such a thing as a "turbo SE" then?

 

[pauly]

ORIGINAL: TTM

Is there such a thing as a "turbo SE" then?

I thought that was what followed the "S".