Turnover

[SimonExtreme]

John

I am suprised as the 993RS I drove had more compliant suspension and that normally leads to more varation in dynamic geometry. This leads to the tyre wear. Do you run standard geometry? If not, that might explain it. Or it could be that you don't push hard enough[][] (OK, I have read about your 2nd in class )

 

[oldtimer]

Reckon if you are a 993RS fan then you need to stay with the 993RS forum []
....thats if you can put up with the excitement []

 

[lee fulford]

I reckon you guys are all getting a bit technical for me.

To me it's more basic as usual. I've never had the pleasure of driving a 993RS so it would be unfair to comment as far as drivability.

I love the 993 shape which for me represents the 911 at its finest. However the 964 represents the RS closest to the the original concept of the 73 car both in terms of design and rawness.

So for me thats the reason the 964RS would reign over the 993RS.

Pure and simple.

 

[DESMO16]

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

Reckon if you are a 993RS fan then you need to stay with the 993RS forum []
....thats if you can put up with the excitement []

You guys are ganging up on me!!!
I'am going to take your advice Oldtimer and pxss off to where someone will listen to me ranting on about 993rs's[][][][]

 

[Yoda]

I have been reading this thread with interest as I very nearly bought a 993 RS and it is always interesting to hear what makes people's car special to them. There was an interesting comment about the 964 RS being as fast as a 993 RS - can this be the case? Surely Porsche wouldn't release an RS successor that was slower than the previous model, that would hardly be moving the game along. Does any one have any circuit test info comparing std cars under test conditions ie same weather, drivers etc. Would be interesting to see what the difference was.

I agree re the satisfaction of driving a 964 RS on track, by far the most engaging car I have driven in anger, seemingly unburstable if looked after and very quick car indeed. I had the pleasure of a being taken out by a friend for a few laps around SPA in a near std 993 RS - it was stunning and very quick by any standards. Admittedly, lots to do with who was driving but there was no question the car was capable. I was curious to see what he could do in my car but not curious enough to let him have a go and tell him to go for it!!

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

I don't have figures to hand but lets take a few things into account. The 993RS has 40 hp over the 964 RS and is only 90kilos (i think) heavier. It has a significantly better rear suspension set up(in effect double wishbone rear as opposed to semi trailing arm and coilovers) and was also %'s stiffer(in terms of body rigidity). AFAIK the 993RS in standard form was/ is quicker than a 964RS in standard trim round most given tracks given the same works driver. Both cars can be tuned though, then your not comparing apples with apples.
In my view what you don't get (at least as much of) in the 993 RS is the sense of weight transfer that you do in the 964RS , it's still there but far less so and this is true of the newer water cooled cars only more so, to the point you could almost forget they're rear engined (almost !!) you can never forget it's rear engined though it's still there and can still be felt. This can be seen to be either a good thing ( far more confidence instilling) or bad depending on your point of view. I am neutral on this as I can see the good in both.

 

[PhilRS]

ORIGINAL: Yoda
There was an interesting comment about the 964 RS being as fast as a 993 RS - can this be the case?

Yoda, taking Spa as a reference, the answer must be a clear 'no', especially if the comparison involves clubsport versions of the two models, and even with stock versions of the standard lightweight models. However, this wasn't always the case.

I have been an avid reader of the French Flat 6 magazine since its inception in '92. In French club racing, which I followed for several years, when the stock 993 RS came out, it was major disappointment against well-tuned 964 RSs... That is, the stock 993 RS was slower. But then, 964 RSs were comparatively easy and cheap to tune (e.g. hotfilms, 18 inch wheels). Some were really well tuned. With time and money 993 RSs caught up and became the tool of choice in club racing (especially when cup cars became available). It is only expected: stock 993 RSs already have more grip from larger wheels, bigger brakes, better ABS, better suspensions and stronger engines. Physics must prevail. However...

I know someone who drives at Spa quite a lot and quite well (Chfs911 knows him too as we spent 3 days at Spa with him). He owns a 964 Clubsport, a gorgeous 993 cup, a 996 cup and a 914 GT (and also a couple of 911s for the road). He raced in the 964 cup. His favourite car for Spa is not the fastest (which would be the 996 Cup, without a doubt), but the ... 964 Clubsport. For him, the issue is not overall speed (he is not racing anymore), but feel...

On this dimension of clarity of feedback from the steering wheel and seat of the pants, the 964 RS wins over the 993 RS. Is there anyone out there who disagrees with this statement? You must have driven the two models to be able to disagree []

 

[DESMO16]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme

John

I am suprised as the 993RS I drove had more compliant suspension and that normally leads to more varation in dynamic geometry. This leads to the tyre wear. Do you run standard geometry? If not, that might explain it. Or it could be that you don't push hard enough[][] (OK, I have read about your 2nd in class )

Simon
Heres a quick snap of the 993 last week, lifting a wheel exiting Camp corner at Castle Combe, running standard suspension.
How much harder do you have to push[][][]

Regards

John

 

[SimonExtreme]

Lifting a wheel out of Camp? Looks like the suspension is a bit soft and wishy washy, rear dug in and who knows what's going on[][]

Seriously though, John, are you running standard geometry?

 

[DESMO16]

Hi Simon,
To answer your question, the suspension is standard factory fit, however Tech 9 set it up with a track bias ie. increased cambers, lower ride hight etc.
However the car, although good on the track, is still nice on the road and doesn't eat tyres.
Therefore this must finally prove conclusively, that it is a "superior" machine to the 964RS(Dives for cover)[][][]

 

[Rotorhead]

I don't own either (although I have got a 2.7RS). However, I have driven both on the road and, IMO the 993RS is far more pleasant in that environment, which to many people will be crucial.

I did quite a few laps with Nick Faure in a 993RS, on track, and he was absolutely oozing with praise for the car and, at the time, reckoned it was probably the best production 911 ever. I think he also rated lhd above rhd.

Mind you, I know what people mean about the 964RS - it has that raw, chunky, feel and look about it that, somehow just lseems right.

 

[Andy Tims]

ORIGINAL: John Probert


Simon
Heres a quick snap of the 993 last week, lifting a wheel exiting Camp corner at Castle Combe, running standard suspension.
How much harder do you have to push[][][]

John - Did you get any wheel lift without my extra ballast in the car?

 

[DESMO16]

Andy,
Unfortunately not!!!!!
Now you have given the game away[]The reason for the wheel lift was indeed due to our championship pie eating physiques.[]

 

[RSR]

...and letting down the left rear tyre.

My opinion on the missing ingerdient is purely based on the enjoyment factor. I just don't get the same joy from driving a standard 993 RS hard as I do from a standard 964 RS. The key point being standard. A key disappointment for me has always been the 993 RS engine, which feels flat after the 964. Having driven a 993 RS with a sorted engine, and good suspension setup then they really start to deliver. The 964 RS engine is just great and maybe its saying something that the 993 Cup cars never bothered with the varioram and stuck to the black plastic inlet as per the 964 and the solid tappets.

As John and others suggest it's down to your personal preference, as its far more to do with enjoyment than laptimes.

 

[Melv]

ORIGINAL: lee fulford

He's an enthusiastic driver and very pricise and the car would be used for pleasure only.

Tell him to buy a bl00dy Audi then!! []

993RS -loved it when I drove one -felt instantly at home and that I could bung girlfriend and luggage in for Chateau weekend and track day no probs --but not in a 964RS. Just missed the rawness of the '64, and the classic 'frog-eye' 911 looks......argue on chasps.....[]

 

[lee fulford]

ORIGINAL: Melv

ORIGINAL: lee fulford

He's an enthusiastic driver and very pricise and the car would be used for pleasure only.

Tell him to buy a bl00dy Audi then!! []

Melv You're so agressive.......calm down it's only a commercial.

By Pleasure I merely meant that there won't be any shopping trips involved.
Driving for pleasure could well involve track days, can I assume you don't get pleasure from track days?[] I guess you might not in an Audi..

 

[paul howells]

Interesting debate,i wonder how many 964 owners have driven a 993 on the limit!
A 964 is a peice of cake on or over the limit,the 993 has greater grip,with better suspension!They can be a bit more of a handfull than a 964,on or over the limit.
If you want a sharper feel from the 993 rs,2 things to do,poly bush the front lower wishbones and solid mount the rear subframe with the gt2 spacers,close your eyes and it will feel like a 964,but with more grip.
Porsche do not go backwards in terms of engineering,what ever you may think.
compare 964.993 and 996 cup cars for lap times,its says it all.
Saying this,still a great fan of the 964 though!

 

[SimonExtreme]

Paul

I am particularly interested in your comment "A 964 is a peice of cake on or over the limit,the 993 has greater grip,with better suspension". Everything I have ever read says the opposite! Maybe you are refering to the non RS cars because I was always led to believe that in standard road for, the 964RS was far more likely to "bite" on the limit and that one reason for changing to 993RS front dampers and springs is to help this. I seem to remember that one of the car mags descibed the handling of the 993RS as "diluted" compared with the previous (964RS) car.

While you are right that Porsche doesn't go backward in engineering terms, going forwards doesn't always mean better handling and grip. I believe that the 993RS handling and suspension package in general was in response to the critisism that the 964RS was too extreme for a road car. Better, no. Different, yes.

 

[jimmyslr]

I have driven both 993rs and 964rs on track. I doubt there would be much between them with same driver. My 964 feels livelier/more sensitive through the wheel and generally stiffer. I find the 993 gearbox much better and the handling seems more forgiving.

 

[oldtimer]

I'd be interested in getting together with some fellow 964RS and 993RS owners at an airfield type venue and having a communal experience taking turns to be driver or passenger to better understand the debate . Maybe that nice Mr Probert could turn up as well as the Doctor (Johnny Senna) ....a damp day would help lower the speed necessary to explore handling in extremis too [] .....not very relevant to the original 'turnover' thread starter unless someone ends up on their roof ....