Turbo Tuning advice

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: PSH

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo


Were you at Liverpool or Bournemouth? []

Sorry Tony , don't understand the question, in what context?

Regards

Pete

just a cheeky dig, as if you were power was a bit down! (as was mine with my off the shelf vitesse chips, yours was probably smoking less though!)

Was also just about to post wondering if you plan to do anything to stop the bores moving about in your current build? deck plate, grouting etc. My concern with boost much over 18PSI is that the bores flex/move no matter how tight you clamp the head. I have an image of Nasa rocket nozzles that I find hard to shift especially having seen the marks on the underneath of a well exercised head gasket.

I would be nervous of a Fen type incident with too much clamping and something going wrong, thats why I ran a standard HG on mine.
Tony

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

ORIGINAL: PSH

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo


Were you at Liverpool or Bournemouth? []

Sorry Tony , don't understand the question, in what context?

Regards

Pete

just a cheeky dig, as if you were power was a bit down! (as was mine with my off the shelf vitesse chips, yours was probably smoking less though!)

Was also just about to post wondering if you plan to do anything to stop the bores moving about in your current build? deck plate, grouting etc. My concern with boost much over 18PSI is that the bores flex/move no matter how tight you clamp the head. I have an image of Nasa rocket nozzles that I find hard to shift especially having seen the marks on the underneath of a well exercised head gasket.

I would be nervous of a Fen type incident with too much clamping and something going wrong, thats why I ran a standard HG on mine.
Tony

Ahhh .. Yes power was down at Bournemouth which I did mention in another thread somewhere, but I know the reason so not worried about it now.

Yes there is the possibilty of liner movement under high boost, something that I did discuss with Serdi UK when they rebored my block. They can also fit steel liners but it was decided it wasn't needed for the power that I planned for the car (500bhp, eventually) and it has it's own problems with the different expansion between steel and alloy. IIRC Fens car was a later model (after 86) and he put a rod through the block? , as I said elsewhere over 350bhp you risk this with cast rods. My rebuild will have all forged internals, the original rods that are seem as the best available, even when compared with newer aftermarket forged rods. Full race IASA forged pistons and as mentioned Raceware studs. I may modify the pistons with a little racing trick that I did to my younger son's Cossie but not decided yet, I get nervous doing such things.....

I'll start a build thread once I start putting the engine back together, I'll run it in at the same power level as before using the standard exhaust and Vitesse, then when money allows I'll change the exhaust and EMS, this will take a little time but worth the wait....

Pete

 

[TTM]

There is a picture or two of a damaged MLS headgasket in the engine build progress thread, that shows how cylinder movements can damage the headgasket. This one was run at 20 psi though.

I would suggest you not to waste any time reusing the standard exhaust. I made that mistake and thinking about it now I would say that the thousands of miles of missed fun certainly outweigh the price of a 3" exhaust.

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: TTM

There is a picture or two of a damaged MLS headgasket in the engine build progress thread, that shows how cylinder movements can damage the headgasket. This one was run at 20 psi though.

I would suggest you not to waste any time reusing the standard exhaust. I made that mistake and thinking about it now I would say that the thousands of miles of missed fun certainly outweigh the price of a 3" exhaust.

Believe me if I had the money to spare I wouldn't as I know the only reason I was below 400bhp before was due to the exhaust and turbo downpipe, still as I said I'll run the block in with the standard exhaust and then upgrade after, I'm afraid with a cost $3000 for the exhaust I want , it will have to be that way or the car will be off the road for longer which has its own risks.

Pete
Oh btw my car had been running over 20 psi for some time with no signs of any movement or damage to the cometic head gasket, which considering the high back pressures involved using a standard exhaust brings me to the view that all will be ok.

 

[George Elliott]

Pete
big bucks, is it literally $ or is it a UK produced part?
Per TTM my DIY 3" exhaust made an enormous difference, as did the 2 inch hole in the snorkel and Stage 1 IC.
1.5mm wall 304 stainless is not expensive, if you know a good TIG man its a full days work so maybe £200, plus a Jetex stainless box from their custom range. The down pipe needs to be opened up too which is another days work.
I did / sourced that myself using a DP Jig made from a std fit DP to retain all OE fastener points.
Only problem is it causes rear tyre wear[]
George
944t

 

[Diver944]

On the organised Dyno Day shootouts, the off the shelf chips certainly outperformed the custom maps for the most basic of modifications (wastegate, MBC and chip). However once we all started fitting different turbos, MAFs, pistons etc it all got a bit too much for an off the shelf chip to handle and a more customisable option became a must.

I remember being behind Paul Rogers Turbo at Bedford Autodrome when his head gasket blew up most violently and Andrews S certainly had his fair share too. However that was nearly a decade ago now and well before we all realised the importance of extra fuel at high revs, and so we started using 3bar FPRs, uprated fuel pumps and much bigger injectors as we took the boost over the 1bar level

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Pete
big bucks, is it literally $ or is it a UK produced part?
Per TTM my DIY 3" exhaust made an enormous difference, as did the 2 inch hole in the snorkel and Stage 1 IC.
1.5mm wall 304 stainless is not expensive, if you know a good TIG man its a full days work so maybe £200, plus a Jetex stainless box from their custom range. The down pipe needs to be opened up too which is another days work.
I did / sourced that myself using a DP Jig made from a std fit DP to retain all OE fastener points.
Only problem is it causes rear tyre wear[]
George
944t

Hi George

This is the header http://www.speedforceracing.com/index.php?productID=668( er manifold to us Brits), and by the time you add the test pipe and turbo downpipe sections plus options $3000 is being conservative.
I've heard there may be issues with RHD cars so this I need to research a little but I'm not one to be to worried by such things, however there are other options if forced.
The problem is and I probably suffer this more than most, where do you stop? , bigger turbo would be a good idea, inlet manifold, wider throttle body, I already have most other upgrades except what my son says is the biggest hold up being the 80's ECU so probably the last item on the list is a stand alone EMS and he's already told me which one to get.
Mind you when it comes to modified cars is there ever a last thing?......

Pete

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

On the organised Dyno Day shootouts, the off the shelf chips certainly outperformed the custom maps for the most basic of modifications (wastegate, MBC and chip). However once we all started fitting different turbos, MAFs, pistons etc it all got a bit too much for an off the shelf chip to handle and a more customisable option became a must.

I remember being behind Paul Rogers Turbo at Bedford Autodrome when his head gasket blew up most violently and Andrews S certainly had his fair share too. However that was nearly a decade ago now and well before we all realised the importance of extra fuel at high revs, and so we started using 3bar FPRs, uprated fuel pumps and much bigger injectors as we took the boost over the 1bar level

Ahhh fond memories again, I remember being a passenger in Andrew S's at Castle Coombe when his HG blew, mind you we were overhauling everything else on the track at the time, fond memories indeed.

Pete

 

[TTM]

When I was looking at a 3" exhaust upgrade the SFR unit (not the Fabspeed) was high on my list until I found out US guys reporting significant fitment issues.

One customer mentioned to me he had to send his full 3" SFR exhaust 4 or 5 times back to SFR for adjustments until it would fit half decently.
Maybe his experience was a one-off, but for the price mentioned and being on the other side of the pond I could not justify the risk. And I do not even include the 4-1 headers and potential fitment issues due to a RHD configuration.
This is nothing personal against SFR, as I purchased twice from him (a MAF pipe then a front mount intercooler kit) and got delivered as expected, unlike many other customers apparently, and have been pleased with these parts.

Lindsey exhausts are less expensive and have proved durable enough even if they are not stainless, and will fit straight away with minor hassle.
My friend Sly who drives his turbo all year long, on generously salty roads during winter time and who washes his car about once a year, hasn't noticed one spot of corrosion on his LR exhaust.
The Fabspeed seems to be a bit more upmarket, but should also apparently fit troublefree.

The Hayward & Scott unit looks like an interesting alternative, especially if you are in the UK. Graham (GPF) has posted pictures on here suggesting it's worth being considered too.

 

[PSH]

Thanks for the input TTM, I am aware of some fitting issues and to be honest I kind if expect it when fitting after market parts, especially exhausts. However I did have a chat end of last year with Tim at SFR and will ensure that any fitnent issues are discussed fully before parting with any money. Most of the upgrades currently on my car originate from Lindsey except the MAF which is Vitesse and IMHO still the best unless going to a stand alone system. I do not believe that I can achieve the higher power levels I wish for with Lindsey's current range hence why the change to SFR.
Time will tell if I'm right..

Pete

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: PSH

ORIGINAL: Diver944

On the organised Dyno Day shootouts, the off the shelf chips certainly outperformed the custom maps for the most basic of modifications (wastegate, MBC and chip). However once we all started fitting different turbos, MAFs, pistons etc it all got a bit too much for an off the shelf chip to handle and a more customisable option became a must.

I remember being behind Paul Rogers Turbo at Bedford Autodrome when his head gasket blew up most violently and Andrews S certainly had his fair share too. However that was nearly a decade ago now and well before we all realised the importance of extra fuel at high revs, and so we started using 3bar FPRs, uprated fuel pumps and much bigger injectors as we took the boost over the 1bar level

Ahhh fond memories again, I remember being a passenger in Andrew S's at Castle Coombe when his HG blew, mind you we were overhauling everything else on the track at the time, fond memories indeed.

Pete

I have a video clip somewhere of Andrew blowing his HG at combe, you might have been in it then!

 

[PSH]

[/quote]
I have a video clip somewhere of Andrew blowing his HG at combe, you might have been in it then!
[/quote]

I'd be interested in seeing that Tony, IIRC it was a PCGB track day and we were rapidly gaining on a couple of 993's at the time.

Pete

 

[George Elliott]

Pete, thanks for that, I follow this with great interest, but your link is one of the first to focus seriously on the exhaust manifold, as opposed to the post turbo exhaust sections. Have to say the pro's and con's of the manifold layout (both exhaust & inlet) are a bit beyond me, sounds like they want the 951 to rev like a GT3, but I always assumed the rotating mass was a bit heavy for that. I am aware that manifolds and the airflow pulses have the potential for great power gains & losses depending on their tuning. The 997GT2 inlet has some magic worked into it which I hope to one day understand. [8|]
Looking at the fabrication and fittings I agree the costs are in line with the product.
keep us posted pls
George
944t

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Pete, thanks for that, I follow this with great interest, but your link is one of the first to focus seriously on the exhaust manifold, as opposed to the post turbo exhaust sections. Have to say the pro's and con's of the manifold layout (both exhaust & inlet) are a bit beyond me, sounds like they want the 951 to rev like a GT3, but I always assumed the rotating mass was a bit heavy for that. I am aware that manifolds and the airflow pulses have the potential for great power gains & losses depending on their tuning. The 997GT2 inlet has some magic worked into it which I hope to one day understand. [8|]
Looking at the fabrication and fittings I agree the costs are in line with the product.
keep us posted pls
George
944t

Will do George..... Regarding " potential for great power" , I'm not sure of the engine details but SFR's customer project car with this exhaust made 531bhp at the wheels, now that is serious power and being on a 944 chassis it's unlikely you'll meet a car on the road that can match it. You'll find it on YouTube.

Pete

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: PSH

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

ORIGINAL: PSH

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo


Were you at Liverpool or Bournemouth? []

Sorry Tony , don't understand the question, in what context?

Regards

Pete

just a cheeky dig, as if you were power was a bit down! (as was mine with my off the shelf vitesse chips, yours was probably smoking less though!)

Was also just about to post wondering if you plan to do anything to stop the bores moving about in your current build? deck plate, grouting etc. My concern with boost much over 18PSI is that the bores flex/move no matter how tight you clamp the head. I have an image of Nasa rocket nozzles that I find hard to shift especially having seen the marks on the underneath of a well exercised head gasket.

I would be nervous of a Fen type incident with too much clamping and something going wrong, thats why I ran a standard HG on mine.
Tony

Ahhh .. Yes power was down at Bournemouth which I did mention in another thread somewhere, but I know the reason so not worried about it now.

Yes there is the possibilty of liner movement under high boost, something that I did discuss with Serdi UK when they rebored my block. They can also fit steel liners but it was decided it wasn't needed for the power that I planned for the car (500bhp, eventually) and it has it's own problems with the different expansion between steel and alloy. IIRC Fens car was a later model (after 86) and he put a rod through the block? , as I said elsewhere over 350bhp you risk this with cast rods. My rebuild will have all forged internals, the original rods that are seem as the best available, even when compared with newer aftermarket forged rods. Full race IASA forged pistons and as mentioned Raceware studs. I may modify the pistons with a little racing trick that I did to my younger son's Cossie but not decided yet, I get nervous doing such things.....

I'll start a build thread once I start putting the engine back together, I'll run it in at the same power level as before using the standard exhaust and Vitesse, then when money allows I'll change the exhaust and EMS, this will take a little time but worth the wait....

Pete

had a look back,
you had approx 320ish in bournemouth in '08 and 295 in liverpool in '09 - behind me both times In Liverpool mine was quite a long way down on power as well - the scored bore was making it very smoky what were your issues was it rich running in liverpool?

 

[PSH]

[/quote]



had a look back,
you had approx 320ish in bournemouth in '08 and 295 in liverpool in '09 - behind me both times In Liverpool mine was quite a long way down on power as well - the scored bore was making it very smoky what were your issues was it rich running in liverpool?


[/quote]

wow.. first off sorry for late reply, was it just me or has the server been down?

anyway this was the reply that I had typed but couldn't send..lol


you have been looking back haven't you...

Lack of power was down to bad advise on an Valve issue that I didn't pay enough attention too at the time, to be honest I still can't believe that I did what I did as it certainly makes no sense to me today but to cut a long story short the exhaust valves had some lift ground away from the tops of the stems. this in effect acted just like a very mild low lift cam which robbed the car of a lot of it's power. What really worried me is how long it took me to realise what the problem was, in my defence there was a lot going on at the time and the car wasn't exactly number one priority plus I should never have used a small local engineering firm , my mistake

Live and learn as they say...

Pete

 

[333pg333]

-I would feel confident with the 'Rogue' products. I think short of a Standalone, this is what I'd go for.

-Cometic headgaskets can blow too. I've done it a few times. The blessing is that if you are at the track and running high boost and it blows you can turn the boost down and usually still drive home.

-Stock rods are not the best available for a proper build. Strong sure, but they're 20+ years old. Heavier too.

-I would avoid SFR personally plus you won't get their headers to fit an RHD car.

 

[George Elliott]

Patrick

just on the age point, and I accept the early OE rods are not the cutting edge any more, but if they went into a lab for a destructive test in 1986 and stretched at 500Tonnes pressure, why would they be weaker in 2012?

In the 1980's BMW used to start with a block out of a reps 318 for their F1 engines, heat cycled and therefore more stable, bit like annealing process I understand.

George
944t

 

[944 man]

Pat, some competition engine builders (inc a number of comp depts) swear by aged kit. Engine blocks, turbo hot sides and rods...

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: 944 man
Pat, some competition engine builders (inc a number of comp depts) swear by aged kit. Engine blocks, turbo hot sides and rods...

Every reason to save a penny is good enough