track toy

[Globe_911]

Hello all,

I have a 944 S2 track car. It's currently stripped, seats/harnesses, cage, promax chip, toyo r888s, braided hoses, yellow stuff pads. SO a few bits done to it already.

Just wondering what the next sensible move would be? Thinking possible big brake kit? Or are there any power gains to be made?

A few ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks

 

[chrisg]

Dear Globe_911,

S2 Track toy sounds like a lot fun !

My suggestions with regard to the brakes based on ownership of:

944 S2 Trackcar
944 Turbo Trackcar = current project..

Would be you don't need larger brakes.... !

Provided, the current 4 x 4pot calipers are all in good working order (no plate lift) , you have good fresh (<1yr old) fluid and stainless lines, oh and all the hard lines to and from the calipers, Master cylinder and ABS system aren't corroded.

Although you're running the Toyo tyres with lots of grip, I'd be very surprised if even on a hot day you run out of brakes, provided you're using the correct pad material AND you've got good cooling to the brakes. If you've already stripped the car and changed over to bucket seats, even with a cage, you should be running ~ 75kg lighter which is 75kg less to stop.

Rather than rush out and upgrade your brakes, I'd look to put 1155's Mintex pads (or similar material from a different manufacturer) all round (pads are same front and back on an S2) and fit either after market cooling ducts or the M030 brake ducts.

With the above set up you won't run shy of brakes. If you do feel the need to go around corners faster and really make the most of your light weight car, I'd upgrade the suspension both the shock absorbers and the ARB's - Leda or KW are options, 968 M030 ARB work well.

Don't forget to get the geometry set up properly as well - I'd go for ~ 2.25-ive camber at the front with parallel wheels.

Yours

Chris

 

[Copperman05]

Suspension, Suspension, Suspension....


Edd

 

[944 man]

...and body prep, body prep, body prep... The extra load has to go somewhere. Id be looking at getting the front and rear suspension seams welded.

 

[Diver944]

If your brakes are working fine and you are already lightened then there really is little to be gained (apart from weight) by adding bigger callipers and disks. If you are starting to experience brake fade caused by too much heat then you can run ducting through the bumper to the back of the disk and also swap out the road pads for a more track biased compound like PF97, Porterfield, or one of the many Pagid compounds.

You can't gain any appreciable extra power unless you bolt on a supercharger or turbocharger so I would look at a more track focused suspension like Gaz Gold or KW and couple it with much larger antiroll bars like the 968 M030 or Weltmiester versions

Extra lightness will make up for the lack of extra power so have you considered fibreglass bonnet and front wings as well as a lexan rear hatch?

 

[Neil Haughey]

As Paul says, and talk to EMC Motorsport for the race car brake ducting cooling setup. If you want to retain the stock front fog light units though you can fit 968 brake duct and deflectors but unfortunately the deflector attaches to a screw mount that only exists on 968 wishbones so may need some fiddling. Standard disks and calipers are good enough even for racing with the requisite cooling and race pads, however M030 (medium blacks) calipers are definitely better but then your into either adaptors or hunting down late turbo front spindles. Definitely use a good fluid though such as ATE Blue as a minimum. Might sound odd but something I am doing this year on my race car is cleaning out the calipers/pads etc. after every event (using one of those swanky sprayers and brake cleaner). I have seem pro race teams do it religiously and after suffering periods when I have lost confidence in the braking due to sticking pads/calipers, I am checking that area like a hawk now. I think what i am saying is that the standard kit is very good but only if kept in properly good working order.

 

[Hilux]

If it is lightened a lot then the standard brakes will be ok with decent fluid and pads.

Medium blacks will (of course) add pad area so is an advantage.

Slotted or grooved discs help dissipate gaseous build up if the pads start to melt

Not sure about yellow stuff - many differing views - I can recommend PF97 or DS2500`s (3000`s if purely track) but I have seen seriously quick 944T's on track on standard Textar pads.

Re-bush the suspension to remove slack - 968 caster mounts are a must in my view. I`m in agreement with 944 man if you have very hard bushes but with more compliant OEM ones less stress is applied

Good suspension and ARB`s make a massive difference - KW and GAZ seem to be favoured and from experiernce the difference over the (20+ year old design) Mo30 is night and day.

The 944 was designed before ultra low profile tyres so sufficient sidewall compliance is part of the suspension design, bear in mind when choosing tyres.

I cant emphasise how repeat driver tuition makes a huge difference. Worth another 30bhp (and cheaper)

after suffering periods when I have lost confidence in the braking due to sticking pads/calipers,

Hi Neil

I am a great believer (and have been for many many years) that if a pad is almost an interference fit on the sliders when cold then it wont be when hot.

Springs and slider tolerances are designed to stop squeal and pad chatter for Joe public who insist on NVH heaven so I always grind off the pad edges a bit and if they rattle then they arent binding

 

[sulzeruk]

I was speaking with Warren at Porschapart and they had just sold a set complete M030 front setup for £1200!!!!! Someone with a 968 CS took it, shows you they are very desireable now. I have a set of medium blacks here for refurb I think if someone is looking for a set. Will probably overhaul them as well so will be ready to fit. I also have a set of 944 Turbo cooling ducts, the marks are there on standard wheel arch liners where to chop them out.
Also make sure the curved alloy brake ducts are fitted as well.
In my opinion, there is a lot to be gained from doing the suspension as the standard stuff will all be shagged out after 20 years of crunching over pot holes. The rear torsion arm bushs are the worst and will have colapsed after this time with the rubber deforming in the housing. The 4 mounts that attach the rear suspension to the chassis will also be tired and probably past it too. All well worth having a look at. The bushses used to be about £200 plus VAT for the 4, now one is £130.50 plus VAT from the OPC. Robbing bastards! I thought there must have been a new batch made but the last bag i got one is was dated a year ago! Olli sells new torsion bar bushes and I will hopefully be getting a set in a week or 2 for Mr Simkins turbo resto project. The axle is stripped on that at the moment so will get some pictures of what goes wrong.
Alasdair

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: Globe_911

Hello all,

I have a 944 S2 track car. It's currently stripped, seats/harnesses, cage, promax chip, toyo r888s, braided hoses, yellow stuff pads. SO a few bits done to it already.

Just wondering what the next sensible move would be? Thinking possible big brake kit? Or are there any power gains to be made?

A few ideas would be appreciated!

Thanks

Hi,

After having tracked 944 Turbo models for over 10 years, I would recommend ensuring your standard brakes are in good shape (add additional cooling if required). Bigger brakes are possibly not necessary; however, fitting M030 callipers (plus adapters or M030 hubs) will enable you to run on standard road pads and not cook the brakes. However, your EBC Yellows should be fine for track work.

Which route to follow depends on what you want to achieve, if it is a faster lap time the quickest and cheapest way to achieve that will be with a set of lightweight spare wheels and slick tyres that you can fit at the track (4 spare wheels will fit in the boot of a 944).

Next step would be lowering the suspension. This can be achieved by re-indexing rear torsion bars and fitting shorter front springs or by replacing the current suspension with a coil over kit (such as KW Variant 3).

Not much is possible in terms of increasing power for the S2, your chip will have yielded a little more power (depends on condition of engine and compression).

Carrying more corner speed is what you really need to achieve and there's no quicker way to achieve that than the fitting of slicks.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[edh]

I wouldn't do much more to the car - bar suspension improvements and brake cooling

I'd spend the money on trackdays, fuel and consumables.. [] - and the inevitable wear & tear from track use.

Nice to see another S2 track car - I think that's the third red one kicking around now, plus Will's white one (another newcomer on here..)

 

[Globe_911]

thanks everyone. Going to have a look at the GazGold suspension, possibly larger ARBs and poly bushes and give the brakes a good clean and grease up, running blue ATE fluid, braided hoses etc so from the sound of it there would be great expense for minimal difference!

Re; bushes, which are best to change? and any recommended makes?

 

[Frenchy]

I went around Oulton Park in Loc's 944 2.7 with suspension work and tyres only, very impressive in the twisty bits, Alan just need to drop a turbo lump in there now []

 

[simon macturbo]

What track tyres are you guys using ??

experience and recommendations please....

 

[944 man]

I used Dunlop Sport Maxx in 235 all round. I found them to be grippy and predictable, but the car was quite heavily over-tyred (and light too exaggerating this).

 

[Diver944]

The best I have used for out and out grip in dry conditions has always been the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups but they are also the most expensive as well. Kumho V70A are a lot cheaper and have almost as much grip.

If you have two sets of wheels then another option is full race slicks. At the end of the season you can sometimes pick them up ridiculously cheaply and they have more grip than any road legal track tyre. They help disguise a very average driver [8D]

 

[944 man]

If youre going to use slick tyres then you need to have a long hard look at your suspension and the bodyshell prep too. Slicks will generate a lot more grip and the extra force generated has to go somewhere. If you dont prepare for this then the body will be scrap in pretty short order.


Simon

 

[944Turbo]

Didn't find any adverse body effects from the relatively hard slicks I was using, but it got through brakes and wheel bearings much faster than on other less sticky rubber. I wasn't attacking curbs and try to be quite smooth on track though.
Tony

 

[Neil Haughey]

Various ppl have tested them over the years and concluded that there isn't much difference between old slicks and good conditon list 1B tyres. The last I recall talking about this was Steve Rance in a thread over on PH. Personally if it was my money on a tyre just for track days I wouldn't put on cups, they take ages to warm up but overheat easily, have extremely quick reaction yet have very sharp sudden limits. I love driving on them as they make the car come alive, something like the Dunlops whilst more boring are a very consistent tyre and IMHE surprisingly good in the wet.