Should I trade up, 944Turbo to 996TT

[diabloam]

Hi all, have come into a bit of coin recently and am half considering trading up from my 944 Turbo to a 996 Turbo, but am totally unsure whether this is a good idea. I like working on my car and worry the 996 turbo will be a nightmare to work on and I wouldnt be able to do anything to it. Also even if I wanted to go to specialist to get anything sorted with it I stay in the Scottish Isles so have no choice (and actually want to maintain my car myself). Am I better just spending a few squid on getting more power out of my 944 for more thrills or should I bite the bullit and go for it. I have put a lot of work into the car and she is a low miler and all the crappy jobs have been done. Also if I did sell it, I am unsure how much I would get for it.

She is an 86' Turbo in slate grey metallic, stnadard apart from a boost enhancer and a new baileys dump valve and all new vacuum hoses. I have done a bottom half rebuilt with genuine sills and I did this to a high standard and got her professionally resprayed. I did the belts and water pump about 2k ago, she has new standard turbo shocks all round and new wishbones, and generally drives great with huge pile of reciepts and a clutch about 40k ago. What is she liekly to be worth with 98k miles on her?

Cause I am so unsure about whether to go down this path I thought I would ask what everybodies opinion is, I really like the 996 Turbos but also love my 944T, however I have two other cars and a seven month old son and I just cant justify having two Porsche, especially since I spend half the year abroad with work. Do I go for it, what could I expect to get for the car? I am totally in two minds about this so thought I'd see what people think?

 

[ukmastiff]

Your car either still does it for you or it doesnt. If you hanker for something else and dont try it then you may regret it until you die.
As i found out recently that could be in 50 years or 50 days so if you fancy it and really can afford it why not.
You may of course turn out like me , never happy for long with any toy


Oh probably 4,000 ish


Best of luck
Mas

 

[diabloam]

Well unfortunetly that is the issue, will there be a big enough jump in performance and in terms of other aspects of ownership to satisfy me, or would I just be shedding out a load of money for not that much more, really am split on this and would hate to sell the 944 cheap to someone who does not appreciate them

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: diabloam

Well unfortunetly that is the issue, will there be a big enough jump in performance and in terms of other aspects of ownership to satisfy me, or would I just be shedding out a load of money for not that much more, really am split on this and would hate to sell the 944 cheap to someone who does not appreciate them

a standard 944T to a 996TT will certainly be a big jump in power although not in handling, however a well sorted 944t is a different question altogether. Some years back there was an article in one of the Porsche mags ( possible 911& Porscheworld) asking the same question, I think it was titled something like '100k car vs 10k car which would you choose, choose carefully?'... any way the modified 944T was the better choice...


Pete

 

[Copperman05]

Forget the 996TT and go for a early GT3, perhaps not as quick but I bet its much more fun to drive than the TT.


Edd

 

[DavidL]

Haha. Welcome to my world. I've been messing and buggering about wondering about just this for the last year or so.

On the plus side:
I've driven a couple and they go really well, the consumate GT car.
Yes they have the potential for some big bills but routine stuff is comparable with a 944t
They are "that" shape and I'll admit to really wanting one - there is an element to the pose factor and yes they do look cool!
The NA 911 have this looming issue of IMS which these don't

On the down side:
They are hopelessly less practical than a 944
In the real world I don't think I would be that much further ahead in a 996t over my, now modified 944t, and I'm still acquiring bits to close the gap further.
I've driven a couple and they go really well, the consumate GT car, but maybe, just maybe a bit to good for their own good?
They are now 10 years old so, they have the potential for some big bills.
I can't sell my 944 for anything like what I've spent (ok I don't expect to) but I can't bring myself to give it away just to allow myself to move on - I do quite like my 944!
For me the selection of cars in a colour scheme I'd buy is limited - they're all silver/grey with black leather - god how dull [:'(]
I found my ideal car - didn't know it at the time - was offered a very generous deal to assist in selling mine - and considered having both but sense (boring) won in the end.

Purely on weight to power I worked out you need about 375bhp to match a 996 in a 944. Ok its not 4wd and I know Ben said his 996T was just "better" and quicker even than WUF but I wonder if you're not getting into the realms of semantics over the difference on the road.

And they're at least 20K.

Could you build a 944 to compete for less, even paying for the work. Probably. Or rather you could spend half that and get 95% of the way there and the other half still coming up 2% short.

For me unless I get offered a good deal then I'm staying put but that doesn't mean I won't go there or maybe a 997 in a few years - lots more of them available - but it might be as well as rather instead of when pennies and space allow.

No idea if that helps but it sums up my thoughts.

 

[PSH]

Did a search... 911 & Porsche World issue 73 April 2000, perhaps it may be worth your time ordering this back issue and have your question answered a little more informed. btw the 944T in question only had a power output of 350bhp but gave similar performance. The 996 is a very heavy car when compared to the 944T, even more so since you have the desirable 86 which was the lightest and strongest of the breed.

Pete

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Hmmm. Lots of replies on the 944 forum, but none on your similar post on the 996 forum. [8|]

That does kind of support my personal opinion; the cars are only part of the experience, and the community around them is almost as important. Not knocking the 996 community, just the fact that the 944 owners always seem to be there with their advice, opinions etc.

I've got to say that I'm with Edd on the GT3 suggestion if you want to spend that sort of money, as at least it won't be losing huge amounts every month you own it. But, and again it's only my view, but can you really ever use that performance in the real world? Would you actually be frustrated with a car that you can only really exploit such a small part of it's capabilities? Or are you going to be tracking it regularly in order to get the most out of it?

What about keeping the road car at a level you're happy with, and putting the rest in to having serious fun with something like a (relatively) cheap race series? My £60 karting once a month gets the adrenaline going far more than trying to keep to 30 past the speed cameras. Without wanting to sound like an old fart, it is so risky driving too far outside speed limits now that a 944 in good condition is more than you'll ever need, let alone upping it to 350 BHP.

If you really want to up the performance, perhaps going the other way completely is the answer? Strip out and lighten a road car, keep it basic and reliable, and make a clubsport-spec 944 that is going to be as fast as a 996 turbo over normal roads?

Hope that's not just added more indecision! [&:]

 

[MarkK]

Do it ..996 turbo is awsome and is very reliable,well priced you live once go for it[]
The GT3 mk 1 is great but they didn't make that many and lots were HEAVILY tracked,I was a member of the RMA the year they came out and everyone had one and they were not driven gently[]
A nice 996 tt will just need a service every year,tyres and brakes depending on use.

 

[PSH]

I've just spent a short while reading the buyers guide kindly linked on the 996 forum for the OP by a 996 owner.... wow.... I knew these cars (996) had issues but geeze no wonder you can buy a 996 today for less than a 944T. To sum up, don't do it, stick to the 944t and yes I know that the turbo version doesn't have as many issues as the N/A cars but IMHO they are still to risky a buy. It's well known that Porsche lost the plot in build quality during the 90's early 2000's but these cars are more like something out of the British Leyland factories in the 70-80's....lol



Pete

 

[DavidL]

The turbo blocks are completely different to the na ones and as such are pretty bullet proof.
IMS issues are what puts me off a na 996, or a boxster or a 997. It might not happen but it seems to far too often for my liking.
Hence the extra desirability of a turbo - especially at current prices.

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: DavidL

The turbo blocks are completely different to the na ones and as such are pretty bullet proof.
IMS issues are what puts me off a na 996, or a boxster or a 997. It might not happen but it seems to far too often for my liking.
Hence the extra desirability of a turbo - especially at current prices.

I did say the turbo has less issues..... they are mainly rear spoiler, coolant expansion tanks and small gearbox issues so yes the turbo is probably not so bad and is certainly a powerful car, however the N/A cars... I can only say WOW..... oh and perhaps WHY?....

Pete

 

[MarkK]

Turbo has Metzger block a la GT3 so completely different to a N/A and that's what he was asking about?
A 996 turbo will sit at 160 mph all day long safely on an Autobahn,it is in another league modernity and dynamically to our brilliant classics once he has experienced the modernity of a 996 tt he could always come back if he really misses the 944[]

 

[diabloam]

Myself and my mate share a subaru with a 2.5 NA legacy engine we built for local autotesting and rallying so get quite a lot of my car kicks out of that. I got a disco as a family wagon and an old Clio 16v as a day to day hack. I just have the porsche for these long blasts, I just drive it for the fun of it, generally on my own, simply for the sake of driving. Part of the appeal of the 996T would be the four wheel drive as the roads up here in Scottish Isle are interesting (in a good way) and it rains a lot as those familiar with NW Scotland know and I have had a few hairy moments (gotta love RWD and old school turbo delivery, lol). The Porsche is purely a toy for myself and I only do a few K a year.

I wont deny there is a bit of pose factor involved and I love the 996T shape, with the side scoops, and I like turbo cars. The GT3 is a nice idea but no turbo, a little too stripped out and I kinda assumed they were very costly? One thing I will say if I did move on is the community, everybody on here is so friendly and helpfull and think Paul said it when you look at the response I got on here compared to the 996 area, where nobody seemed to take me on concerning my post about whether a 996TT was a practical home mechanics prospect, whereas on here I have always got a great reception which also encouraged myself to try help others in areas I have dealt with, really great scene!

I love my 944 and it probably owes me circa 7-8k (I got it cheap due to sill rot) if I added everything up, but suspect I would not get that much if I sold it anyway and I would not like (as somebody mentioned) to just give it away cheap, especially to someone who neither cared or understood these cars. Such a dilema. I am currently away with work the now and I certainly wont be rushing into anything.

As a further asdide it has crossed my mind just to keep the 944 and put it into storage (would defo have to hide that one from the missus) but suspect it would not take kindly to standing unmoving for a long period of time, and its really hard to justify. I think I will have to consider my two options, sell it and get a 996TT. Or spend a few squid getting the power up and maybe a bridge spoiller etc. Its a nice dilemma I have but it does not make it any easier and dont want to regret my decision. What kinda money is my one worth realistically (i.e. what would somebody actually pay for a good standard 86 model with a lot of the problem areas dealt with) rather than a dream price, need to weigh up my options, thanks all

 

[333pg333]

That's just what I was going to suggest. You seem to be in a financial position to keep the 944t as it won't get you much in a trade anyway. I think the 996tt would be seriously tempting for how fast they acquire speed all while being in a more cossetted environment. I drove a 997tt at speed and it was an amazing car, but I'm not sure that it would give me quite the same pleasure as a nicely modified 944t crazy as that sounds. I mean they're so good they're slightly sterile compared to the tactility of the 944t. Having said that, an air cooled 911 is even more involving. In reality, how often are you going to be able to cruise at that 160mph Autobahn selling point? If it was fairly often then the 996tt is a commendable choice. I reckon I'd consider a nice 993 with some suspension work done and use it as a trackday car too. Keep the 944t for it's practicality, oh, and the inevitable smile they bring. []

 

[DavidL]

You might try 911uk.com for the 996 side of things.

I'd see a 996t as a grand tourer for long trips with passengers. For hoons across the moors on your own a gt3 would probably be more fun but they are at least 10k more.
Or what about something a bit more radical - r500 caterham or aerial or similar?

 

[Neil Haughey]

I'm with both Mark and McNulters on this one. If I had the cash to play with it I would buy one in a heartbeat. My thinking is along these lines, very personal to me but anyone reading might find it helpful. Goes like this: Can't exploit cars properly on the road so we take them on track, once on track you get sucked into more and that more is racing. Can't afford to spend the £15K to £20K PA needed to race pork so start to think about alternatives, options include buying your dream car and doing track days in it, might be a GT3 or a CSL or whatever but realistically that will cost as much as the racing so scrub that idea. Look next at dropping down into something where the motorsport is more affordable, could be a hot hatch, old MX5, arriveNdrive kartin ala club100/covkartsport etc. autotesting/hillclimbing/sprinting etc. etc. take yer pick. Then I realise I am driving around every day in a flipping Panda for pete's sake in a desperate attempt to save cash. Need to get a pork fix as surely I wouldn't walk away from pork ownership and Steph's 968 tip sure as hell ain't doing it for me. Save some cash and get the ultimate road car, enter 996TT.

OK I didn't promise it would make logical sense, but to me the 996TT makes perfect sense as the ultimate expression of road going pork. Something ppl forget in the tuned up 944 comparison is that the 996TT will be just as devastating in bad weather when the weight of all that 4wd gubbins comes to the fore. It rains a lot here in the UK and for me a good road car absolutely must work in variable conditions. The whole GT3 thing just doesn't do it for me as I know that whilst I could scrabble together over £30K to buy one I ain't going to afford to run the thing as a track car which sort of kills the whole point of it.

The elephant in the room of these conversations is what if one went the opposite way and wanted something fun on the road at sensible speeds? That may take you into a completely different direction into stuff like the 911SC or 924 turbo or early square dash 944, or as many do into really simple stuff like old MX5s and minis etc.

 

[924nutter]

I have just upgraded to a now 20,000 mile 996 T cab like you are contemplating. It is is the rare special order colour of Atlas Grey metalic, and is a six speed manual. Nice as a tip might be, for me ther is something reassuring about how fixable the clutch is compared to a tip box. If you get near the handling limits of a 911T you should be on a track. I am no wuss in the corners and following a bog 996 c2 the other day I was on the verge of backing off in my 944t. Ask Paul Smith about wheelspin in 5th. The (I think 416 bhp) 996 T is fourwheel drive and when you launch YOU LAUNCH! This may seem like heresey but I just don't believe even the best sorted 944 can put down comparable amounts of power through the rear wheels. It is a hell of a power jump. As previously stated I am no wuss, yet during the test drive of the 996 as a passenger I was on the point of having a number two after having all the rumours of how wayward the rear of a 911 is flash through my mind approaching a damp bend quite quickly. Unless you are very silly the 996 is planted. Agreed is it completely unforgiving beyond the limit, which is why it has a fierce reputation and part of the reason the 928 never caught on, whereas I lived to tell the tale after having my 944s sideways at tower ( Castle Combe track day pre esses and chicane) having just hooked fifth at about 110 braked for tower and had brake fade. slowed it down a bit but not nearly enough, put it in third and round it went. The guy in the 911 following said it looked spectacular with smoking tyres etc but new underwear had to be administered.... But I digress. The 3.6 flat six has tremendous torque off boost and the difference is noticable straight away in terms of driveability. Just don't have too high an expectation on boot size. I can can safely say that the 944 Cab has a bigger boot, and anyone who has seen the boot of the cab will testify how small the boot is on the cabriolet. I doubt very much if you will get a test drive in a 996t unless you have readies. A fellow R19 member enquired aboout a 964 and was told that if he had a car to trade before buying he should come back when he had the dough. This is bound to have a knock on effect, and having phoned one dealer not more than 11 miles form Marlow about a test drive in one of his range of 996T first of all they didn't think I would find a low mileage 996t in the first palce and they were not forthcoming at all with the offer of a test drive. Low milage cars are out there I spent probaly 6 months trawling the net. Running costs. well the on board says 25 mpg at an average of 48 mph. Clearly I am keeping those ponies reigned in. Perhaps only while "people" are looking, and at 20,000 miles I have not had a service yet but it is due one and an mot so I'll post when I get the bill in. The 911 reaches parts other cars don't, mainly any speed bump, undulation or uneven road surface. Unless you have a pit or hoist I would suspect that even an oil change would have to be left to the professionals, but that opinion might be tempered by the fact that I am now 61 am recovering form a broken elbow, and having put on some lard while handicapped, cant be ar5ed with all that jacking up crawling under stuff. Last october I did belts and tensioners on the 944, and I just had a nice run to Castle Combe in it for the Porsche races yesterday. I'll still do brake pads and stuff, but imagine if you stuff up your oil change... No recourse.

 

[John Sims]

A debate of much interest.

I agree with Paul regarding the issues of going fast on the road and, with the ability to go very fast very easily, comes much frustration when you cant and much temptation when you can.

I haven't driven an 911 Turbo (at least not that I can remember) but I have driven a Turbo Panamera and Cayenne and can confirm they are both way too good and way too fast to be fun on the road.

For sheer fun, you need something old and light that you can wring the neck of. Something that will frighten you without need to be going at Warp Factor 10. As someone very wise said to me "If you want a car to thrash or race you should be of a mind that you could set fire to it, walk away and not worry". If a car is too precious you wont enjoy it.

On the other hand, if you fancy something, and can afford it, then get it. You can't take your money with you and you can't guarantee you will see tomorrow. Enjoy it, or not, at least you will have scratched the itch.

 

[Ewan]

If you have the cash, go for the 996t as it's awesome in all conditions. Budget at least £22k for a good one, and then maybe £1k for a chip to take it to around the 500 bhp mark.

Or, spend maybe £5k on the 944 for a bigger turbo, exhaust, MAF etc and lift your current car from 250 to maybe 400 bhp. Which would be more "fun" to drive, especially in the wet!

Either way, it's a nice dilemma.