Service and MOT sweepstake!
- Thread starter pauljmcnulty
- Start date
wolfie308
New member
It's difficult to be completely objective without seeing the final tally of jobs and parts.
Interesting to note that Ewan who was closest I believe is a JMG customer and I wasn't far behind and have been using RPM for the past 7+ years.
Couldn't find an hourly rate quoted for JMG or Promax but I do know RPM's is now £65/hour + VAT
Interesting to note that Ewan who was closest I believe is a JMG customer and I wasn't far behind and have been using RPM for the past 7+ years.
Couldn't find an hourly rate quoted for JMG or Promax but I do know RPM's is now £65/hour + VAT
Doesn't mean we can't slag it off; everything here is MUCH more expensive than elsewhere, and (in many ways) the people not as nice. The phrase "London Prices" exists for a reason.
McNulters, that's a LOT. For what seems like a fairly small list of work. Do you have the breakdown of parts and labour, and the prices of individual items? I'd be querying a bill like that without a doubt; the fact that everyone estimated significantly lower suggests it is steep.
Oli in London.
pauljmcnulty
Active member
I'm not going to break the whole thing down, it's three pages!
It's basically 6K service, replace belts/seals/pulleys/water pump and 'stat. Replace CV boot set (4), OS wheel bearing, change clutch fluid, and take for MOT. Plus, investigate, get fabricator in, whatever, for rear suspension mounting. It's fair enough that they charge their hourly rate, I have no issue with that at all.
Parts-wise: all the service items, dis cap and rotor arm, 2 wiper blades, wheel bearing, cv boots, rollers, seals, belts, gaskets, water pump, thermostat, clutch fluid, PAS and alternator belts, PAS fluid, coolant, all the usual sundries and environmentals, the MOT fee, fabricator's charge for the welding, and VAT on the lot.
Now. I know I could buy all the parts cheaper, but that's not an option for me for time reasons, and because I don't begrudge people making a living. I could have sourced a cheaper water pump, got a volvo dis cap, used non-porsche coolant, gone to Costco for the oil, fitted my own wiper blades, but would it have saved more than a few hundred? For that, I'd have had to do a lot of travelling around, phoning, waiting for parcels, then driven all the parts to the indie. They would have had the car waiting for it's MOT until I arrived with the relevant bulbs, wiper blades etc., and I don't consider that fair. Of course, the wait of over a month for the fabricator was unforseen, and if I'd known about that perhaps it would have been worth it. But, knowing it would fail on the welding the car wasn't looked at further until it was back to them anyway.
The North/South thing is always a bit of a red herring IMO. You might be able to get a cheaper hourly rate Oop North, but they are paying less costs and wages. RPM are £65 per hour, my local lock-up-type "cheap" mechanic, who does the van, is now £50 per hour. He would obviously take longer, as he doesn't know the cars inside out, so it wouldn't be a real saving.
Diy is the only real alternative, and this is far beyond my skills. What could I really get all those parts for, and all the tools I'd need? Probably not under a grand at least. Then I'd need the welding anyway, so I'd probably have £1000 saving at most but have to do all the work. How many hours would it realistically take someone with near-zero experience to do all those jobs? As an example, it took me a whole day to change a slave cylinder and bleed the cluch fluid on my Lux. It's going to be at least a week's work, and I can't take a week off at this time of the year, let alone the obvious likelyhood of me breaking something major.
Personally I'd rather go to work, and pay an expert to do his job with things I can't easily do myself. Same with getting the whole thing done in one go, rather than having bits done by them, getting it back and doing some bits myself, then going for an MOT, then probably taking the car back for something else. Every return trip to drop the car off or pick it up effectively loses me half a day, by the time I've got home and picked the van up to go to work.
I just thought it was an interesting exercise, as so many people comment about how expensive the cars are to maintain, particularly given the values. I just accept that it's an old, performance car that needs looking after, and that I live in an expensive area. Remember, what newer comparable car could I change it for that wouldn't be losing that much in depreciation? [&:]
It's basically 6K service, replace belts/seals/pulleys/water pump and 'stat. Replace CV boot set (4), OS wheel bearing, change clutch fluid, and take for MOT. Plus, investigate, get fabricator in, whatever, for rear suspension mounting. It's fair enough that they charge their hourly rate, I have no issue with that at all.
Parts-wise: all the service items, dis cap and rotor arm, 2 wiper blades, wheel bearing, cv boots, rollers, seals, belts, gaskets, water pump, thermostat, clutch fluid, PAS and alternator belts, PAS fluid, coolant, all the usual sundries and environmentals, the MOT fee, fabricator's charge for the welding, and VAT on the lot.
Now. I know I could buy all the parts cheaper, but that's not an option for me for time reasons, and because I don't begrudge people making a living. I could have sourced a cheaper water pump, got a volvo dis cap, used non-porsche coolant, gone to Costco for the oil, fitted my own wiper blades, but would it have saved more than a few hundred? For that, I'd have had to do a lot of travelling around, phoning, waiting for parcels, then driven all the parts to the indie. They would have had the car waiting for it's MOT until I arrived with the relevant bulbs, wiper blades etc., and I don't consider that fair. Of course, the wait of over a month for the fabricator was unforseen, and if I'd known about that perhaps it would have been worth it. But, knowing it would fail on the welding the car wasn't looked at further until it was back to them anyway.
The North/South thing is always a bit of a red herring IMO. You might be able to get a cheaper hourly rate Oop North, but they are paying less costs and wages. RPM are £65 per hour, my local lock-up-type "cheap" mechanic, who does the van, is now £50 per hour. He would obviously take longer, as he doesn't know the cars inside out, so it wouldn't be a real saving.
Diy is the only real alternative, and this is far beyond my skills. What could I really get all those parts for, and all the tools I'd need? Probably not under a grand at least. Then I'd need the welding anyway, so I'd probably have £1000 saving at most but have to do all the work. How many hours would it realistically take someone with near-zero experience to do all those jobs? As an example, it took me a whole day to change a slave cylinder and bleed the cluch fluid on my Lux. It's going to be at least a week's work, and I can't take a week off at this time of the year, let alone the obvious likelyhood of me breaking something major.
Personally I'd rather go to work, and pay an expert to do his job with things I can't easily do myself. Same with getting the whole thing done in one go, rather than having bits done by them, getting it back and doing some bits myself, then going for an MOT, then probably taking the car back for something else. Every return trip to drop the car off or pick it up effectively loses me half a day, by the time I've got home and picked the van up to go to work.
I just thought it was an interesting exercise, as so many people comment about how expensive the cars are to maintain, particularly given the values. I just accept that it's an old, performance car that needs looking after, and that I live in an expensive area. Remember, what newer comparable car could I change it for that wouldn't be losing that much in depreciation? [&:]
OLD_ian
New member
Paul
There's also another thing that you've not mentioned. In the service history you've got a detailed invoice from a respected shop that will certainly not hurt the resale value. I've taken my car to RPM and to Ninex because I've not got the facilities or skills to do it myself. Certainly it's much more expensive than trying to do it myself but the tradeoff is that every time I get my car back it's better than it was. The work's been done by guys who know their shit and stand behind it. They also like the cars and have sorted out minor things for no additional cost while they're in there. Having James at Ninex tell me that my door hadn't been reassembled correctly by some previous cowboy and they'd fixed it while putting it back together was reassuring and is just one example of the extra mile that you seem to get from the guys who love these cars.
Ian
There's also another thing that you've not mentioned. In the service history you've got a detailed invoice from a respected shop that will certainly not hurt the resale value. I've taken my car to RPM and to Ninex because I've not got the facilities or skills to do it myself. Certainly it's much more expensive than trying to do it myself but the tradeoff is that every time I get my car back it's better than it was. The work's been done by guys who know their shit and stand behind it. They also like the cars and have sorted out minor things for no additional cost while they're in there. Having James at Ninex tell me that my door hadn't been reassembled correctly by some previous cowboy and they'd fixed it while putting it back together was reassuring and is just one example of the extra mile that you seem to get from the guys who love these cars.
Ian
OLD_ian
New member
One further point on this... When the cars were new a 944 would have cost considerably more than my annual income. Buying one at that time was not an option. Now being rather older, buying a new Porsche is an option, but I've made the choice not to spend that much as I have a lingering horror of depreciation.
Given they were originally expensive it's unreasonable to expect that they are cheap to maintain. Expensive to run when new can only ever mean more expensive to run when old.
Ian
Given they were originally expensive it's unreasonable to expect that they are cheap to maintain. Expensive to run when new can only ever mean more expensive to run when old.
Ian
Paul,
It IS an interesting exercise, and does indeed highlight that a car can be cheap to buy but expensive to run. However you have just paid a LOT of money for work that many people would expect to cost substantially less - and that could easily have been done for a lot less, as your own comments highlight.
Give that we can see (from other threads on here) that S2's (ropey ones, admittedly) are changing hands for £2k nowadays then it's fair to say that you have spent more than the value of your car on a service. And that, surely, is a point where cars are going to be scrapped for relatively minor faults, OR fall ever more heavily into the hands of the DIY brigade who can maintain them for less (the cost of the parts, effectively.)
I'll be open; I would never want to own a car that threw up bills of £2.5k - heck, I wouldn't want to own a car that could throw up bills of four figures. I'd like to think that I am better off than most, but there are other things to spend money on. I guess that being retired means I am lucky in that I have the time to DIY, in a way that others haven't - which gives me access to cars like 944's.
Oli.
It IS an interesting exercise, and does indeed highlight that a car can be cheap to buy but expensive to run. However you have just paid a LOT of money for work that many people would expect to cost substantially less - and that could easily have been done for a lot less, as your own comments highlight.
Give that we can see (from other threads on here) that S2's (ropey ones, admittedly) are changing hands for £2k nowadays then it's fair to say that you have spent more than the value of your car on a service. And that, surely, is a point where cars are going to be scrapped for relatively minor faults, OR fall ever more heavily into the hands of the DIY brigade who can maintain them for less (the cost of the parts, effectively.)
I'll be open; I would never want to own a car that threw up bills of £2.5k - heck, I wouldn't want to own a car that could throw up bills of four figures. I'd like to think that I am better off than most, but there are other things to spend money on. I guess that being retired means I am lucky in that I have the time to DIY, in a way that others haven't - which gives me access to cars like 944's.
Oli.
Ewan
New member
What do I win?[
]
Seriously though, a bill like this from a respected indie in the sunny affluent south seems fair enough to me. I would have thought using someone like JMG or Promax would have thrown up a comparable bill, give or take.
And that bit of paper adds far more to the value of your car than a DIY owner simply telling a prospective purchaser "and I did all the work myself..."
]Seriously though, a bill like this from a respected indie in the sunny affluent south seems fair enough to me. I would have thought using someone like JMG or Promax would have thrown up a comparable bill, give or take.
And that bit of paper adds far more to the value of your car than a DIY owner simply telling a prospective purchaser "and I did all the work myself..."
It,s always a touchy subject with old cars, but the main thing to remember is that 2.5K is nothing compared to depreciation on a new car. The hidden costs of new are horrendous. At least you now know for sure the provenance of those bits you have renewed. And old cars are like dogs...not just for Christmas!
Nearly 2 years ago, I entrusted my local garage with work on my S2. The son of the proprietor took a shine to the car, borrowed my Clarkes garage and did the belts/cam chain/clutch cylinder. Since then, the car has been hammered on track days and completed a trip to Spa plus a full day on circuit there and has run very well. So this week I got him to do:
Head Gasket
Replace valve oil seals and decoke head
track down and fix faulty idle
Oil/filter change
MOT.
Sweepstake 2? But I can't better McNulters stunning prize!
Nearly 2 years ago, I entrusted my local garage with work on my S2. The son of the proprietor took a shine to the car, borrowed my Clarkes garage and did the belts/cam chain/clutch cylinder. Since then, the car has been hammered on track days and completed a trip to Spa plus a full day on circuit there and has run very well. So this week I got him to do:
Head Gasket
Replace valve oil seals and decoke head
track down and fix faulty idle
Oil/filter change
MOT.
Sweepstake 2? But I can't better McNulters stunning prize!
This is undoubtedly true, but I'm getting dubious as to the relevance of it. I have never and would never buy a new car, and hence comparing the costs of running a 944 with the depreciation on a new car is a slightly pointless exercise for me. You could compare a £2.5k service with the national debt of Angola and it would be no less significant.
A new car comes with a LOT of customer service, possibly free tax and insurance, manufacturers back-up if it goes wrong, nice waiting rooms and coffee and pretty sales girls to amuse you. And, more importantly, a 100,000 miles warranty and the guarantee that every part on the machine is new. As well as 25+ years more development, safety, performance and so on. And you never have that first-thing-on-a-cold-morning nag in the back of your mind that the car you are about rely on to get to work is 25 years old and may not start. You have none of these with a 944.
Don't misunderstand me - I think that 944's are great, as is evidenced by what is parked outside my house. But, as with any group of people who are enthusiastic about something, our spectacles can get a little rose-tinted from time to time - and comparing high running costs with new car depreciation is one area where this happens.
Oli.
But the DIY owner has the satisfaction of doing something and learning a bit more about their car and adding a small bit of value to it. What seems in terminal decline now is anyone who can actually change or repair something on their car. We now seem to have bred a generation of playstation monkeys with no great ability at all. My friend who has a VW/Audi garage has tried to get an apprentice for the last 3 years with no great luck at all. All the prospective candidates seem to want to do is stand about and text on their phones!
I personally would not trust any garage anywhere to work on any vehicle I own, I have seen 20 years worth of other peoples work and mistakes!
As long as there is a receipt for the parts to back up what is done on the car, I am quite happy to buy cars like that. Even if there is no receipts, it is easy to see what has been done and what hasn't with shiny parts attached to the car.
I recently bought a GT TDI Mk 4 Golf for my runabout. No receipts at all with it but the vendor had said it had had new disks and pads all round, a timing belt, water pump and new shocks and springs. Pull back the timing belt cover, nice shiny new belt, look under the wheel arches, nice shiny new shocks and springs.
It seems people in the Porsche market get hung up on large invoices from large expensive garages for some reason. Just because you have large invoices doesn't mean that the work has been done to a satisfactory standard by any means. I have seen some people walk away from buying a car due to it missing 1 stamp in the book! At the end of the day, if the cars drives well and you have a right good look over it, that is always the best way to look at a car before buying. I don't think I have ever looked at a service book yet when buying a car.
Alasdair
I personally would not trust any garage anywhere to work on any vehicle I own, I have seen 20 years worth of other peoples work and mistakes!
As long as there is a receipt for the parts to back up what is done on the car, I am quite happy to buy cars like that. Even if there is no receipts, it is easy to see what has been done and what hasn't with shiny parts attached to the car.
I recently bought a GT TDI Mk 4 Golf for my runabout. No receipts at all with it but the vendor had said it had had new disks and pads all round, a timing belt, water pump and new shocks and springs. Pull back the timing belt cover, nice shiny new belt, look under the wheel arches, nice shiny new shocks and springs.
It seems people in the Porsche market get hung up on large invoices from large expensive garages for some reason. Just because you have large invoices doesn't mean that the work has been done to a satisfactory standard by any means. I have seen some people walk away from buying a car due to it missing 1 stamp in the book! At the end of the day, if the cars drives well and you have a right good look over it, that is always the best way to look at a car before buying. I don't think I have ever looked at a service book yet when buying a car.
Alasdair
pauljmcnulty
Active member
Oli, I agree about the new-car thing. I'd not compare it to a new car as such, as I'd never buy a new car, but to a newer, or different older, car.
The fact is that any car costs a certain amount to run, and you have to factor in ALL the costs before you say which is more expensive. If I was to buy, say, a ten-year-old BMW to replace the older 944, I'd have different costs perhaps. But, I'd bet it would work out pretty similar overall. This is what I keep trying to get across to SWMBO, as our 100K Legacy has needed a lot spent on it over the last year. But, it's probably only depreciating at around £500 per year, whereas chopping it in for a "new", three-year-old, Legacy would probably lose £2K per year, plus the cost of the money used to buy it.
I think you also have to seperate out the cars that are keepers. Mine is a long-term prospect unless something unexpected changes, so a bad couple of years is both to be expected, and to be balanced out by the better years. I've never been the sort of person to buy a cheap car, run it until it breaks, then buy something else. I love the long-term ownership, getting to know the cars inside out, that sort of thing.
Alasdair, I also understand your point about working on a car yourself. For me, and I suspect many others, it's just not viable. I have no access to a decent garage, and my arthritis means working outside on a car that's not on a ramp is't usually possible, let alone sensible. I've no background or knowledge, and no proper tools, and at 46 I'm not likely to be starting now. I'm not clueless, I do a lot of minor repairs on my mowers and 2-stroke gear in my workshop, but any major work is more cost-effectively done by the experts in me experience. I could service the car, I've done some work like the clutch cylinder slave and handbrake shoes myself, but the work it had this year was way out of my league.
I don't think there is a really significant diference to the value of a 944 by having a full PC history, and indie history, or evidence of DIY servicing with receipts; having a history is the important thing. The differences in values are too small to warrant spending more on one form of servicing purely to "maintain" a value over many years. Few buyers would be brave enough to take on a car that should be owned by an enthusiast if he's "lost" all the history. Unless it was VERY cheap, most buyers would walk away, as there are so many 944s with huge bundles of documented history, pointing to the car's owners over the years being more meticulous about looking after it.
The fact is that any car costs a certain amount to run, and you have to factor in ALL the costs before you say which is more expensive. If I was to buy, say, a ten-year-old BMW to replace the older 944, I'd have different costs perhaps. But, I'd bet it would work out pretty similar overall. This is what I keep trying to get across to SWMBO, as our 100K Legacy has needed a lot spent on it over the last year. But, it's probably only depreciating at around £500 per year, whereas chopping it in for a "new", three-year-old, Legacy would probably lose £2K per year, plus the cost of the money used to buy it.
I think you also have to seperate out the cars that are keepers. Mine is a long-term prospect unless something unexpected changes, so a bad couple of years is both to be expected, and to be balanced out by the better years. I've never been the sort of person to buy a cheap car, run it until it breaks, then buy something else. I love the long-term ownership, getting to know the cars inside out, that sort of thing.
Alasdair, I also understand your point about working on a car yourself. For me, and I suspect many others, it's just not viable. I have no access to a decent garage, and my arthritis means working outside on a car that's not on a ramp is't usually possible, let alone sensible. I've no background or knowledge, and no proper tools, and at 46 I'm not likely to be starting now. I'm not clueless, I do a lot of minor repairs on my mowers and 2-stroke gear in my workshop, but any major work is more cost-effectively done by the experts in me experience. I could service the car, I've done some work like the clutch cylinder slave and handbrake shoes myself, but the work it had this year was way out of my league.
I don't think there is a really significant diference to the value of a 944 by having a full PC history, and indie history, or evidence of DIY servicing with receipts; having a history is the important thing. The differences in values are too small to warrant spending more on one form of servicing purely to "maintain" a value over many years. Few buyers would be brave enough to take on a car that should be owned by an enthusiast if he's "lost" all the history. Unless it was VERY cheap, most buyers would walk away, as there are so many 944s with huge bundles of documented history, pointing to the car's owners over the years being more meticulous about looking after it.
TTM
Well-known member
DIY is the way to go for most mechanical jobs but I would see it as a double-edged sword on a car needed on a daily basis.
I'm more than happy to bring my 18 year-old runaround shed to the local garage for any serious work (belts, waterpump, headgasket, etc) as I need it everyday and feel less frustrated when it breaks down in case they might have done anything wrong on it - which hasn't happened yet in the 3 years I have used them.
I may have spent 3 times what the car cost me but it's close to being virtually mechanically new and ready for another 50k troublefree miles. I don't think this strategy could be applied on a 944, the prices for consumables are getting just too high.
I would suggest getting a cheap reliable runaround car, save the 944 for high days while learn DIY jobs, alone or with friends. 944s are on their way to classic status so this is just the way to go over the long term. In my mid 30s now I may be less energetic than 10 years ago but far more efficient/wiser in working on the car with much less time spent - it's never too late for learning.
I'm more than happy to bring my 18 year-old runaround shed to the local garage for any serious work (belts, waterpump, headgasket, etc) as I need it everyday and feel less frustrated when it breaks down in case they might have done anything wrong on it - which hasn't happened yet in the 3 years I have used them.
I may have spent 3 times what the car cost me but it's close to being virtually mechanically new and ready for another 50k troublefree miles. I don't think this strategy could be applied on a 944, the prices for consumables are getting just too high.
I would suggest getting a cheap reliable runaround car, save the 944 for high days while learn DIY jobs, alone or with friends. 944s are on their way to classic status so this is just the way to go over the long term. In my mid 30s now I may be less energetic than 10 years ago but far more efficient/wiser in working on the car with much less time spent - it's never too late for learning.
There's lots of sense being talked on this thread, and a variety of different points of view that the sense is coming from.
McNulters - yes, looking at ALL the costs has to be the sensible way forward. And look at what you get for them; all the bonuses of a new car are very appealing to some people. I don't happen to value smart waiting rooms (I have a nice lounge at home), pretty sales girls (my wife is lovely enough) or good coffee while waiting (I'll drink from my own cafetiere while sitting my own lounge with my wife, thanks!) But some people think otherwise, and there are legions of new car showrooms happy to take their cash. Yes, you can then compare with a slightly older car (5-year-old Saab, 10-year-old BMW, whatever is your poison of choice) and then you have different costs to contend with; depreciation will be less, but more than with a 944. Maintenance will be more than that for a new car, but less than that of a 944.
The DIY/pay-to-have-it-done argument will rage on forever. And, again, it's a matter of choice. Do you value not having to squirm around underneath your car getting dirty, cold and possibly wet? Spend your cash on someone else's workmanship then. But, as Alasdair has said, not all 'professionals' do work that I would value on my car. One of the reasons I do DIY is that I KNOW the job is then done properly; the money saved is a bonus, and avoiding the hassle of booking it in, dropping it off and then collecting it is another bonus. And, as has been mentioned, not having to pay someone else's profit margin on parts is nice.
I'd contend that a list of receipts from known indie's doesn't add much, if anything, to the value of a second-hand car, compared with one that has been owned by a clearly capable enthusiast owner with a bunch of receipts for parts, a handwritten service history and a good workshop. It certainly doesn't add as much value as it costs, and any such argument is readily refuted.
As many a wise man has said many times before, you pays your money and you takes your choice. If you are happy with your choice then bravo, stick with it ... (but don't be closed-minded to the fact that there are other choices out there as well!)
Oli.
McNulters - yes, looking at ALL the costs has to be the sensible way forward. And look at what you get for them; all the bonuses of a new car are very appealing to some people. I don't happen to value smart waiting rooms (I have a nice lounge at home), pretty sales girls (my wife is lovely enough) or good coffee while waiting (I'll drink from my own cafetiere while sitting my own lounge with my wife, thanks!) But some people think otherwise, and there are legions of new car showrooms happy to take their cash. Yes, you can then compare with a slightly older car (5-year-old Saab, 10-year-old BMW, whatever is your poison of choice) and then you have different costs to contend with; depreciation will be less, but more than with a 944. Maintenance will be more than that for a new car, but less than that of a 944.
The DIY/pay-to-have-it-done argument will rage on forever. And, again, it's a matter of choice. Do you value not having to squirm around underneath your car getting dirty, cold and possibly wet? Spend your cash on someone else's workmanship then. But, as Alasdair has said, not all 'professionals' do work that I would value on my car. One of the reasons I do DIY is that I KNOW the job is then done properly; the money saved is a bonus, and avoiding the hassle of booking it in, dropping it off and then collecting it is another bonus. And, as has been mentioned, not having to pay someone else's profit margin on parts is nice.
I'd contend that a list of receipts from known indie's doesn't add much, if anything, to the value of a second-hand car, compared with one that has been owned by a clearly capable enthusiast owner with a bunch of receipts for parts, a handwritten service history and a good workshop. It certainly doesn't add as much value as it costs, and any such argument is readily refuted.
As many a wise man has said many times before, you pays your money and you takes your choice. If you are happy with your choice then bravo, stick with it ... (but don't be closed-minded to the fact that there are other choices out there as well!)
Oli.
Ewan
New member
Oli - I just noticed that you wouldn't want to own any car that could generate a four figure bill. Are you sure? Are you not tempted by anything Italian and exotic?
For those with the necessary time, skill, knowledge, tools, facilities and inclination, naturally DIY'ing keeps costs down, but on my italian stuff certain big bills are unavoidable. For example, a set of new tyres for the Diablo are over a grand, and that's if/when Pirreli have any in stock (which is far from guaranteed). A new bonet for my 456 - £6k, excluding paint and fitting. And let's not even think about an F40 - they need new fuel cells every 5 years, at £15K a time (not to mention all the usual other servicing).
Which reminds me, the oft-used phrase in the Diablo world was "a Clio". Which was because a base spec Clio was about £5k back then, and that became the unit of currency when discussing what had been spent on the car. (As in, "just got my car back from the garage - it was two Clios this time..")
If you discount all cars that can generate bills of over a grand at a time, you miss out on awful lot of very good cars!
For those with the necessary time, skill, knowledge, tools, facilities and inclination, naturally DIY'ing keeps costs down, but on my italian stuff certain big bills are unavoidable. For example, a set of new tyres for the Diablo are over a grand, and that's if/when Pirreli have any in stock (which is far from guaranteed). A new bonet for my 456 - £6k, excluding paint and fitting. And let's not even think about an F40 - they need new fuel cells every 5 years, at £15K a time (not to mention all the usual other servicing).
Which reminds me, the oft-used phrase in the Diablo world was "a Clio". Which was because a base spec Clio was about £5k back then, and that became the unit of currency when discussing what had been spent on the car. (As in, "just got my car back from the garage - it was two Clios this time..")
If you discount all cars that can generate bills of over a grand at a time, you miss out on awful lot of very good cars!
Ewan,
No, not really tempted. Simply because I know that they would be ruinously expensive to run - as you say! Maybe I'm just tight, but I know that I wouldn't enjoy something that cost that much, because of the cost. I'd be afraid to use it, and be worrying about how many pence each yard I drive it would set me back ...
I also get a huge kick out of maintaining my own cars. DIY is an appeal, not a deterrent. I'd not trust something I couldn't understand and have a chance of fixing myself (and that applies to things other than cars as well.)
Does that make me terminally dull? Possibly! I'd buy a Caterham as a kit and build it myself rather than spend the money on Italian exotica. And then I'd know exactly how every bit of it works, how to repair it if it breaks and put the cash saved into some obscure index-linked fund instead!
Oli.
No, not really tempted. Simply because I know that they would be ruinously expensive to run - as you say! Maybe I'm just tight, but I know that I wouldn't enjoy something that cost that much, because of the cost. I'd be afraid to use it, and be worrying about how many pence each yard I drive it would set me back ...
I also get a huge kick out of maintaining my own cars. DIY is an appeal, not a deterrent. I'd not trust something I couldn't understand and have a chance of fixing myself (and that applies to things other than cars as well.)
Does that make me terminally dull? Possibly! I'd buy a Caterham as a kit and build it myself rather than spend the money on Italian exotica. And then I'd know exactly how every bit of it works, how to repair it if it breaks and put the cash saved into some obscure index-linked fund instead!
Oli.
Ewan, you can keep the Italian stuff. Lovely to look at and sounds nice but overpriced junk in my humble opinion. I looked after a Diablo for 3 years and it was always an experience, particlularly a clutch change (which only lasted about 5 to 6,000 miles). Parts were horrendously overpriced, £500 for a clutch disk. The game of identify the parts from other cars was nice which saved vast sums of money. V12 Jaguar distributor cap saved loads! The build quality was truly shocking with bright metal on some inner panels with no paint at all on them, £188,000 new in 1991/2. Mental! The 456 was a nice understated 4 seater, the guy had one of those as well.
VW taking over Lambo will certainly have reduced the warranty claims I suppose. Ferrari seems to be slightly better but you can still keep them, I like getting to the destination and not having to use my AA membership.
I also had the misfortune of working on Ducati motorcycles as a mechanic many moons ago. It was a lottery with them as well, get a good one and it was good, get a bad one and it was never off the bench? Battery and reglator rectifier anyone?
Alasdair
VW taking over Lambo will certainly have reduced the warranty claims I suppose. Ferrari seems to be slightly better but you can still keep them, I like getting to the destination and not having to use my AA membership.
I also had the misfortune of working on Ducati motorcycles as a mechanic many moons ago. It was a lottery with them as well, get a good one and it was good, get a bad one and it was never off the bench? Battery and reglator rectifier anyone?
Alasdair
Ewan
New member
I too dream of buying a Catherham kit and building the car myself. But a complete lack of time and knowledge means that for me it will stay just that - a dream. Which is a shame as I think it would do me some good to have a greater understanding of how these things work. Maybe when I retire...
Buy one of these instead. Much better than anything Italian and you spec it yourself! It will eat your Enzos, F40, F50s, etc for breakfast and you get change out of £60 grand! Matey built one at 720 bhp and weighed 1048 KG with half a tank of fuel, fastest thing on 2 or 4 wheels I have ever been in, geared for 235 mph.
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/Content.aspx?f=gtrintro
Alasdair
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/Content.aspx?f=gtrintro
Alasdair
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