No Longer Lurking

[Laurence Gibbs]

It's different in as far as it needs to be for approval by the FIA to go racing. i.e. it has a roll cage fire extinguisher flame retardent seats etc. Porsche did not spec these the FIA did you can't race without them.
You asked the question! why build 150 clubsports. I gave you the answer. The reason I mentioned the cup cars was to make you see why they built the clubsport but it went over your head. Let me try once more.
Group N GT (was, it has been superceeded) a racing class for cars of a type that conform to a vehicle in large series production. Large series is defined by a preset number (in excess of 2000 possibly don't know the exact figure). The vehicle in this case having the required production numbers being the 1992 Carrera RS (the vehicle should not deviate from this specification!) A vehicle that Porsche had built specifically for the purpose of meeting the regulations. The FIA specify a number of vehicles that will be race cars from this figure (knowing that build 2000 + cars with full race equipment would not be realistic) This figure 150 by your estimation are produced with the relative safety equipment to make them into race cars and are then "accepted or homologated" as race cars complying with the regulations for N-GT racing. The Carrera cup car being fitted with a different suspension system (single tube bilsteins and higher rate springs) would not have been considered similar enough to the qualifying vehicle (1992 Carrera RS) to be homoloated. Hence there being M001 and M003 race car variants.

 

[carreraboy]

Laurence this discussion is going round in circles the tenor of the debate being lost in a stream of technical deviation as to facts and figures of homologation (which I do understand without the patronising comments) but does not escape the original question How different are the Lightweight and Clubbie? It seems to me that there is little or no difference in your opinion, I differ. Not a question of better but very different in my opinion. To be honest Laurence I think Matt summed it up, I confess to have a "Cage Fetish" too.[]

 

[oldtimer]

good posts from Matt and Laurence ! + some classic Des-information !

Getting back to the original posting , where RS or CS appears to be an option , it seems to me that a standard RS will do the job , can teach you how to drive fast , and has a big enough performance envelope to be enjoyed on trackdays as well as being comfortable enough to drive there eg to Spa without having to wear earplugs or be trailered. The CS is logically the track day focussed car but more expensive to acquire and maybe compromised in how you will use it / whether you will enjoy hammering it on track.
The issue for people who want to enjoy a good helping of track days is that you will get scuffs scrapes dents and even pimples appearing all over ( the car mainly) so it is hard to keep up showroom appearance or even keep the mileage down. The miles you will drive on track are hard miles that push all the usual renewables ......

 

[PhilRS]

Flat6 (the French 911 magazine), in one of their very first issues, compared directly the Lightweight and the N/GT on a track (a maritime blue and a yellow car). The N/GT was consistently faster (same driver and so forth) because it was felt to be more rigid, though, to be fair, they also said that the difference was marginal, but consistent. I will go back to my Flat6 and try to find the lap times, if they provided them.

Now, how many of lightweight owners have noticed that the rubber of their windshield "folds in" after a good hard trackday--typically at the top corners of the windshield?

 

[clubsport]

ORIGINAL: PhilRS

Now, how many of lightweight owners have noticed that the rubber of their windshield "folds in" after a good hard trackday--typically at the top corners of the windshield?

Doubt there will be any, hardly ever see a 64RS being driven hard these days, mostly warm up and cool down laps []

There is definitely a difference in driving feel between basic and clubsport versions of the 964RS, the difference is even more pronounced in 993 versions []

I wouldn't get too excited about it all, in many respects the basic version is the better all round car in terms of ownership experience []

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: Laurence Gibbs

To answer your question Des. It's my understanding that Group N for GT racing requires a certain number of cars of type to homologate the model. The entire production run of Carrera RS was used to produce this number. To quote Bob Gagnon's Carrera confusion
"The 1992 Carrera RS was conceived primarily as the basis for a competition vehicle to be used for FIA Group N (large series production based touring cars) or FIA Group GT (Grand Turismo) racing, as well as a basis car for the factory's popular Carrera Cup racing series".

The M003 was the "competition vehicle" result of this.
Ironic really (given this arguement) that the very reason the M003 was allowed FIA papers is because of it's sameliness with the lightweight[]

Spot on Laurence. I have also found out that the RHD cars were also counted in the homologation total, which required 1000 cars by Dec 1991 (MY 1992). The Clubsport car were only sold because there was the demand for them. They are, for all intents and purposes, the same as a standard (Basic) car.

And the reason why Mel's comment is a red herting, as has been said before, is that there are significant differences between a Cup car and clubsport/basic. Different suspension and ride height are but 2 of those.

Come on guys. this is basic stuff that is well documented. We shouldn't be discussing and correcting this sort of thing![]

Now to tackle Des's comments. First, I am delighted he has what appears to be a well set up car. They really are very few and far between. The difference between a good one and even an average one is huge. I have driven 7 standard RS's and been a passenger in 3 others. I have only been in one that was spot on and that is why I bought it! At Judgement Day 1, the guy who ran it (cannot remember his name) told me at the end of the day my car was the only one he drove all day that was set up right! I wish I could take credit, but I have to be fair and say it was set up by Autofarm. The race team who now runs my car went over the whole suspension set up and corner weighting for the beginning of the season and couldn't believe for a car that had done 10,000 miles, 3 track days and 2 Judgement Days since it's last check, how spot on it was.

Next, we look at the differences between the standard car and the clubsport. The big differences are

1. The lack of carpet and soundproofing
2. Clutch
3. LSD
4. Roll cage

Strangely, the LSD on the clubsport is better in some situations, worse in others. The weight difference makes a little difference, but it isn't huge. The clutch is a robustness thing so this leaves the roll cage.

My first observation is that the roll cage doesn't connect to the suspension mounts. Therefore, most of the real "issues" with the suspension mounts are the same. The cage does help stiffness of the shell but the biggest benefit is that it helps make the shell last longer. Race a shell without the cage and the shell will move significantly and lose stiffness far too quickly. If you took a new clubsport and a new standard car, you should not be able to notice any difference in lap times. This isn't my view. This is the view of a race engineer who used to run a 964RS and then a 964RS 3.8 (the famous RHD car).

We have been talking about it a fair amount as I am looking to improve the car as much as possible. The view that I have accepted is that for the amount of racing I am doing, the stresses I am placing on the car aren't significant enough to make a full cage worthwhile. I am happy to accept a top race engineers view. Having said this, it must be remembered I already have a welded in half cage.

Bottom line is that the 2 cars are almost identical. Unless you intend to race seriously, a well set up standard car will be just as good as a clubsport except for one thing, the noise. Even I have to admit that I prefer the clubsport for that, but only on the track.

One fianl comment that is worth noting. It seems that the cars, as they came out of the factory, weren't as well set up as we would like to think. For instance, corner weighting wasn't done in the factory and cars were a long way off (even clubsport delivered to race teams!). Don't assume that your low mileage virgin is set up right.

 

[lee fulford]

Anyway......It's all very interesting but I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know I turned the heating on in my garage and dusted the RS off.[][]

 

[johnnyb]

Hi Stewart
Mindlessly surfing the net and found this N/GT for sale in France. 47k km at E75k.
Don't know anything about it, but just thought I'd let you know..
http://www.florentmoulin.com/web/vehicules-en-vente-_00.01.02.00.0000_topfiche_2.html
Cheers
Johnny

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: jason

ORIGINAL: Essential


Hi, I am new to the 964rs forum.

I have been on / off looking for a nice 64rs cs for a long time.

Re the guards cs on h&s site. I have agreed to buy the car from Tom and I have a deposit on the car which has just been given a check over at Jaz.

The car is owned by tom and one of his friends or customers. He had quite a few people interested in the car and due to some changes with my plans I have asked if anyone else would like the car please sell it to them..

If the car does not find a new owner by the end of the week then I will go ahead and buy the car as I would never like to say to someone I would buy a car and then not go through with it, unless there was a good reason of course..

Ohh and the car looks just stunning btw.

If you want the car call tom and if not then I may be posting more on here in the future...They dont come along that often and this one is right here in the UK to inspect.


Mike

It looks a really smart car......but 58k????? Not sure I want to pay for a clubsport garage queen

If it's the GT Classics car, it was £55k first time around (four weeks ago ?)