New Suspension, KW-V3?

[Copperman05]

Ok my car has just come back from promax where it just passed its MOT but I have been advised I have serious play in the front shocks and they need replacing fairly soon. Hardly surprising really considering the 22 years and 107,000 they have been through.

My thoughts are to replace all 4 corners with original/upgraded shocks.
I know this topic has been discussed a few times but I do have my own questions I would like to put to some of you who have experienced suspension upgrades.

The car is a 1989 944S2, an only car that I currently do about 10,000 miles a year in, it's a keeper and my intention is to drive it to as many far places as possible including long drives abroad to France, Spain, Nurburgring and Le Mans, etc. I haven't tracked it as yet but would like to try it out in the future.

My main options appear to be:

1. Keep the standard (but new) shocks
2. Upgrade to Koni or similar
3. Go the whole hog to KW-V3

I have been told, options one and two will probably cost about the same with option 3 consisting considerably more (perhaps £1800 , indexed, geo'd, etc?).

As this appears to be a once in an ownership opportunity to change the suspension I want to get it right first time. I already kind of regret not having put a LSD gearbox in the S2 when I had the opportunity, I don't want to do the same with the suspension.

My questions are:

KW-V3 is it really all it is cracked up to be? My concern would be that as a primary road going car, loaded up they may be too hard, or rough. I can accept a harder ride but would be put off with something crashy or uncomfortable. For the significant price increase over the other options what am I going to get back in performance?

What about the Koni's? Firmer than stock? A good compromise?

I appreciate that just fitting new standard shocks are going to show a vast improvement over the tired originals, but it's the differences in these three newly fitted that I'm really trying to ascertain.

Your help is appreciated.

Edd

 

[Suffolk944]

Edd for me KW's are certainly all they are cracked up to be - firm without being at all crashy. They have a clever gizmo which means they firm up round the twisty bits but are more pliant in "relaxed mode". My refurbed 968 CS suspension was horribly crashy and skittish for the road - teh contract with the Kw's is night and day.

If as you say your cars a keeper then its defintley worth seriously considering despite the cost. Of course some Koni shocks may prove totally acceptable too for your needs.

Assuming my car is back from Promax in time for Rutland will happily take you out for a spin round the block to give you an idea at least of how the Kw's feel on the road. (Just be kind about my horribly inferior Turbo in comparison to your mighty S2 is all I ask ![])

 

[zcacogp]

Edd,

I went with the Koni option when I was in the same situation. It was cheaper than the standard (around £100/corner) and arguably a better option. The Koni's are adjustable, but then so are the KW's.

Other things to consider:

- When pricing, don't forget to factor in new ARB bushes, steering tie rods (meant to make a huge difference) and a full alignment. Your money will be wasted without the above.
- Bear in mind that the fitting of the KW's may include the cost of the alignment, which would effectively bring the price of them down when compared to the other options.
- Will you be DIY fitting? Last time I looked, various places were selling the KW's with free fitting. Don't forget to factor this in/out.
- There are other options. Gaz is a new(ish) one on the block, and then there are others such as Ground Control, Racers Edge etc.

At the end of the day it's your money and your choice. I did the whole thing for just over £700 about 3 years ago, with (as mentioned) the Koni options. Are KW's really £1800 now? They were £1200, including fitting, last time I looked ... £1800 is a significant proportion of the value of your car! There is also the diminshing-returns argument; if you are spending this much money, surely it is worth re-bushing the rear suspension as well? And, if you are doing that, what about some thicker ARB's? Elephant Racing rear plates? Adjustable camber?


Oli.

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

Assuming my car is back from Promax in time for Rutland will happily take you out for a spin round the block to give you an idea at least of how the Kw's feel on the road. (Just be kind about my horribly inferior Turbo in comparison to your mighty S2 is all I ask ![])

Was hoping you might say that! Would be appreciated even if I do have to put up with all that lag...[]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Are KW's really £1800 now? They were £1200, including fitting, last time I looked ... £1800 is a significant proportion of the value of your car!

I have no idea, this is a complete guess of factoring the cost + fitting + geo, etc. Who is doing free fitting and do they re-index the new suspension?

Edd

 

[edh]

KW's if you can afford them - I drove Scott's car with them on (now Barks) and they were great.

More compliant ride, and the car felt more modern - compared with my Ledas (which were themselves better than 030).

 

[blease]

I put new Koni sports allround on my S2. Feels beautiful on the road but I do not have enough control of rear squat on the track. I may be going to gaz gold coilovers in the next couple of months so will have the Koni's up for sale...they have done 100 miles and 1 track session only. Converting the front struts for the new Koni inserts is actually quite easy but a bit messy. You have to unscrew the damper rod and spring which releases the damping oil under some pressure. Then you just have to drill a hole in centre of the bottom of the strut to take a bolt that screws into the bottom of the new koni insert so it is firmly located within the strut. No special tools needed but you need to be methodical.

 

[Hilux]

KW-V3 is it really all it is cracked up to be? My concern would be that as a primary road going car, loaded up they may be too hard, or rough. I can accept a harder ride but would be put off with something crashy or uncomfortable. For the significant price increase over the other options what am I going to get back in performance?

Yes - it really is. The ride is firm but compliant and they have a bypass valve so on severe bumps there is a bypass valve that means you dont fubar the valves.

You can 'tweak' the ride of course as they are adjustable but once set up you`ll find the difference is amazing. Definitely drive a car with them - you`ll be convinced.


Also.........................

What EDH said - couldnt put it better myself.

 

[Paz]

I have KW v3's on my 968, they're fantastic for all-round ability.
As mentioned above their valving is perfect for road & track due to the adjustable bump rate, it's amazing how it handles the low speed bumps with the right amount of cosseting and then firms-up when you pick up the pace.
Not at all harsh on our rutted roads and sublime on track.
Tyre wear is pretty even across all four contact patches apart from the nearside edge which gets feathered due to clockwise circuit layouts.

The only caveat is having them setup correctly, Chris at Center Gravity tweaked it all up as per their 'Nurburgring' settings back in early 2009. He can advise you on which setup's best for your driving style.

 

[wibble]

[FONT=Times New Roman"]Whilst KWs are a fantastic setup, my final decision was to use original struts and shocks.

My argument is that Porsche know a thing or too about suspension and invest heavily in R&D, so there is nothing inferior about the standard setup. Our cars are over 20 years old and a fresh set of standard shocks all round will transform the tired suspension - I'm not a betting man, but I would put money on that!

However, I have decided to fit poly-bushes as a compromise along with a 968 rear bush on the front wishbones. Even with standard shocks, poly-bushes etc all DIY, it will come in under £1000 (incl. laser align). You might come in a bit less with the Koni option, but then have the added agro of fabricating the original struts.

Another, problem is that as far as I know, all sports options; KW, Gaz, Spax etc lower the ground clearance. For me, that means I would have problems getting in to my garage on such a steep incline and my surrounding roads are full of speed bumps. I would soon get the hump, so to speak.

I have yet to track my car, but the boys in my region keep edging me to do it - if I was really serious, then I would go and get a Caterham. What percentage of my time will I track compared to daily use on the road? Very little, so you have to compromise and draw the line somewhere.

 

[Lowtimer]

Wibble: you may be the only other person in the world apart from who has had new factory suspension in the last decade or so.

Copperman: the problem with this question is that hardly anyone (if any one at all) has ever been in a position to compare new factory suspension back to back with the aftermarket kits now available. Comparisons between new KWV3 and clapped out manky old stock suspension or M030 prove nothing at all. Any new suspension is better than any 25 year old suspension.

My impressions of having all new suspension are here:
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=573641&mpage=1&key=&#573641

 

[944Turbo]

I put new factory suspension on my coupe, with mostly standard bushes, then with techart springs on the front, they were starting to feel soggy again after 50k and I switched to leda which were firmer but I liked them. the original stuff was much better than the 100k originals.

On my lux I had new original fronts with KYB rears at about 120K miles, the original fronts were very very soft in comparison one had virtually no resistance, with the new ones it felt like a new car (original springs).

Tony

 

[333pg333]

You'll get used to whatever you purchase, you won't know the difference...until you ride in someone else's car with KWs....It's not to say that other brands don't produce good suspension, clearly they do. It's just that you have so many people advocating one brand that it's impossible to ignore.
If you're concerned with the ride quality perhaps you could opt for softer springs? Or go for the V2s, but in reality I am sure the V3s are fine even for a road only car. I can't remember what spring rates the standard V3s come with but I started with the M/sport version with 600/700 springrate and have since moved to 800/900. It will be going up to even higher rates shortly and will still be street registered. My car is still driveable on the street so with stock V3s you'd be more than ok.

 

[ronald smith]

Edd you wont have to put up with all that lag.
Iwill be at Rutland with my S2, which has KWv3 fitted by RPM in 2009. They didnt reindex in this instance
Cue Big Dave! It has MO30 ARB's which had been rebushed not long before by Promax - they did get full
geometry done.
You are very welcome to have a drive to see what you think of it.
Cheers
Ron

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: sc0tty
If the latter, how do you fit new konis into old struts? I thought the whole front macpherson strut thing, spring and gas shock etc had to be replaced as one unit? also, did you go for just rear koni shocks, or coliover things?

Sc0tty,

I did the inserts, and they are a doddle to fit. Really. Once you have read the instructions it'll take you 20 minutes a side. A bit messy but that's about it.

Rears: I don't think that Koni do a coilover rear option. I just unbolted the old shocks and bolted new ones on - very easy.

ORIGINAL: Lowtimer
Copperman: the problem with this question is that hardly anyone (if any one at all) has ever been in a position to compare new factory suspension back to back with the aftermarket kits now available. Comparisons between new KWV3 and clapped out manky old stock suspension or M030 prove nothing at all. Any new suspension is better than any 25 year old suspension.

Simon is spot on with this. The only way to compare suspension systems is to fit them to identical cars, with identical geo settings and identical tyres, and to drive them back to back. I have never seen such a test done, and until someone does this there will always be unresolvable discussions about what is best.


Oli.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944

Assuming my car is back from Promax in time for Rutland will happily take you out for a spin round the block to give you an idea at least of how the Kw's feel on the road. (Just be kind about my horribly inferior Turbo in comparison to your mighty S2 is all I ask ![])

Was hoping you might say that! Would be appreciated even if I do have to put up with all that lag...[]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

Are KW's really £1800 now? They were £1200, including fitting, last time I looked ... £1800 is a significant proportion of the value of your car!

I have no idea, this is a complete guess of factoring the cost + fitting + geo, etc. Who is doing free fitting and do they re-index the new suspension?

Edd

There was a "free fitting" debate on here a while ago and basically they dont re-index. There was a debate as to whether that mattered or not. The supplier fixes the cost of the suspension itself so there is very little leeway whoever you go with.

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: ronald smith

Edd you wont have to put up with all that lag.
Iwill be at Rutland with my S2, which has KWv3 fitted by RPM in 2009. They didnt reindex in this instance
Cue Big Dave! It has MO30 ARB's which had been rebushed not long before by Promax - they did get full
geometry done.
You are very welcome to have a drive to see what you think of it.
Cheers
Ron

Yes please! Thanks for the offer, a ride at least would be appreciated as one day insurance can prove problematic on these cars.

Edd

 

[JamesBall]

By no means a definitive test but my 944T had new standard shocks in 2001, 15k miles ago. I tested a 1998 S2 with standard, old bushes etc but KWv3s on (it is RPM's test mule) last week. The difference in damping is noticable vs my car and my car isn't too bad - the advice from RPM is that my shocks are some way from needing replacing. If I end up replacing the shocks at some point I will definitely be going down the KWv3 route. And to support what has already been written above, the KWv3s weren't at all crashy. I tested them at speed on some pretty appauling roads and they were great - perfect for every day use.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

ORIGINAL: ronald smith

Edd you wont have to put up with all that lag.
Iwill be at Rutland with my S2, which has KWv3 fitted by RPM in 2009. They didnt reindex in this instance
Cue Big Dave! It has MO30 ARB's which had been rebushed not long before by Promax - they did get full
geometry done.
You are very welcome to have a drive to see what you think of it.
Cheers
Ron

Yes please! Thanks for the offer, a ride at least would be appreciated as one day insurance can prove problematic on these cars.

Edd

I guess if you ride in the S2 you will get a good idea of how the Kw's work at slow speeds []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I tested a 1998 S2 with standard, old bushes etc but KWv3s on (it is RPM's test mule) last week.

Ollie offered to let me have a go in the Red Shed when I picked my car up a couple of weeks ago. Having just melted my credit card I declined; I really, really don't want to know if I would want to go down this route. []

Speaking of that test car, I hope they do restore it. It's got great history, but needs a load of bodywork issues sorting. It was good to compare it with the turbo they've got in for breaking, as it's not structural corrosion. The turbo looked much better from a distance, yet the shell was structurally beyond repair. When you compare the difference in purchase price the S2 was an absolute bargain if it lasts even a year.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Suffolk944
I guess if you ride in the S2 you will get a good idea of how the Kw's work at slow speeds []

Why yes, yes he would.

And, when the driver pushed the loud pedal nice and hard, Edd would also get a good idea of how the KW's work when asked to control an axle which is handling a load of torque, and also how they handle at very high speeds!

Edd, good idea to get a ride in an S2 with KW's. You'd get some meaningful results that day too, rather than having to wait a month or so for the turbo to come on boost. []


Oli.