New member + 1st 911 + quandary + stupid questions + guidance needed

[jay.lovell]

Ladies and Gents,

I thought I would say quick hello and introduce myself as a new member to PCGB.

I have recently acquired a 996 C4 Basalt Black 70,000,.Whilst this is not my 1st Porsche, it is my first 911 ! So you would think it's pretty straight forward wouldn't you ... oooohh no my friends, the plot thickens.

As per the description from when I purchased the car, it was being rumoured a C4 but with a full Turbo Chassis that was specially ordered from a main dealer ... blah blah blah. Now, whilst technically this is true in the mechanical sense, obviously this never would of happened from factory.. unless someone could tell me otherwise.

I have taken the car to 2 Porsche independents, the 1st said that " at one point the car was a Turbo and at some point the engine went bang, they then decided to install a C4 engine" they could not see any evidence of crash damage ! The 2nd independent before looking at the car asked for the Vin number which I then provided, He told me that the car was simply a C4 with a Turbo body kit, to which I replied that it seems to be a full Turbo factory chassis ! I then persuaded him so I could bring the car along to show him just to try and get some piece of mind and to figure out what I had. Low and behold, after some head scratching, all seems to be confirmed.

And the confirmation is ... I'm now the proud owner of a ringer !

All things considered and with some hindsight now in hand it's all pretty obvious. I will stress that I got the car for a good price (bias to me) and it was always intended as a bit of fun and also a project for me to work on in my spare time.

I might also add that both independents have told me to cut my losses and move the car on. Whilst this makes perfect sense both financially and timewise. I have taken the stance that the buck will stop with me and rather than commit the car/s to a life destined to be passed around and neglected/dejected and end up a pile of rusty parts !

So, the way I see it is that I have a few options :

1: offer some TLC and keep her running as is in essentially her ringed Frankenstein form with a confused identity !
2: Strip her back to a standard C4 body.... (Not on my watch)
3: Find a Mezger Engine and give her what she deserves (in my humble opinion).
4: Turn her into a track car and run her into the ground
5: Go full outlaw

I'm sure a few others might have other ideas, namely send her to the scrap yard. But what I would humbly ask from you guys is just some expert advice and guidance. Please bare in mind that the car was never purchased to be a fake Turbo, even though it plays the part extremely well. And yes if I wated a T it would be cheaper to just buy a clean one than convert it back. Secretly I hope most of you will say option 3 is the way to go, however I think most will say 1 is the best.

So far under my tenure:

Removed fake techart Chinese made 19's and installed OEM Black turbo wheels 18's
Replaced bonnet struts
installed 997 GT3 OEM short shift kit
Replaced back boxes as one side was blowing
replaced steering wheel with MOMO Porsche Classic Performance

Coming soon
Complete brake refurb
suspension overhaul either OEM or aftermarket, toying with KW V3 or Bilstein 16 (would love some advice in this area)
complete internal retrim


I think this covers all for now I look forward to any constructive advice that comes.

Thanks in advance

Jay

 

[T8Turbo]

Crikey, what a story.

I'm in the option 1 camp. It looks nice and if it drives well it should give you a lot of fun. You don't say what rear badge it's wearing. Whatever, I'd put a simple 911 badge on it and let the world guess what it might actually be.

 

[John_Ward]

Option 1 makes good sense.....although your definition of "full outlaw" might well be interesting!

 

[jay.lovell]

Crikey, what a story.

I'm in the option 1 camp. It looks nice and if it drives well it should give you a lot of fun. You don't say what rear badge it's wearing. Whatever, I'd put a simple 911 badge on it and let the world guess what it might actually be.

Hey T8 I appreciate your input, It's does seem to be the sensible option. My big problem is, that I dont know what "nice" clean 996 drives like, dont get me wrong I can tell that the suspension needs replacing and the front needs to be tightened up. Also I should say that by just changing the wheels alone has made a marked improvement. I think regardless of what I choose for the powertrain... if anything, I shall continue just slowly chipping away section by section. The aim will be to be extremely sympathetic to the brand whist also applying a bit of personality. The way I see it currently is that anything I do will be an improvement seeing the life/lives it's had.

The badge on the rear identifies as "PORSCHE" in a black gloss non OEM. I have to say I prefer your idea of a simple 911... short and sweet

One of my other issues is the rear deck lid ! all original Turbo however the rams have been removed due to the space the C4 engine fills which is a bit of a shame. I was however considering an alternative, I'm a sucker for a duck tail but I think that would just add to the confusion and might appear odd with the side scoops... I have looked around and have not seen any examples of it done.. probably for good reason. BUT there was an option for an Aero Kit "XAF" I think from Techart which is proving to be rather difficult to find.

 

[jay.lovell]

Option 1 makes good sense.....although your definition of "full outlaw" might well be interesting!

Hey John, Option 1 is certainly winning. The Outlaw option is secretly my favourite one, but it's almost the last resort. I had constructive chat with Hartech yesterday, they suggested a rebuild to bring her to a 3.9 .. or if i fancied the risk a 4.1. But I feel that would still leave me in the situation of a sheep in a wolves clothing ! However I quite like the idea of a T-rex in Wolves clothing !

 

[John_Ward]

Hey John, Option 1 is certainly winning. The Outlaw option is secretly my favourite one, but it's almost the last resort. I had constructive chat with Hartech yesterday, they suggested a rebuild to bring her to a 3.9 .. or if i fancied the risk a 4.1. But I feel that would still leave me in the situation of a sheep in a wolves clothing ! However I quite like the idea of a T-rex in Wolves clothing !

Having come across a number of these bitsa 911s in the past (and as the owner of one myself) it's fair to say that it all comes down to the bottom line. As with many projects it's all too easy to spend way over the final monetary value of your creation, but if you get it right aesthetically and technically, what value do you put on the sheer pleasure of ownership and driving enjoyment?!

 

[Greenman986S]

Depending on how far you go, you could create an alternative to a Singer...which of course is no longer a Porsche....

Me - I'd create my own bitza special...

 

[jay.lovell]

Having come across a number of these bitsa 911s in the past (and as the owner of one myself) it's fair to say that it all comes down to the bottom line. As with many projects it's all too easy to spend way over the final monetary value of your creation, but if you get it right aesthetically and technically, what value do you put on the sheer pleasure of ownership and driving enjoyment?!

Hey John, as corny as it may sound, when it comes to cars it's always been about the pleasure of ownership and imprinting a piece of your own personality upon it. And I suppose it works the other way around as well to a degree, more so if the car has been around the block so to speak. I threw in the towel many years ago thinking that what you put in, you can get out.

In some ways it's already "Bitza" I suppose ! and it's fate up until now has been sealed. I think also it would be foolish to think that buy sticking a Turbo back in that it would no longer be a Bitza/Frankenstein.

Out of curiosity have you seen many "good" examples of 996's that have had this kind of treatment on your travels ?

 

[jay.lovell]

Depending on how far you go, you could create an alternative to a Singer...which of course is no longer a Porsche....

Me - I'd create my own bitza special...

Hey Greenman, Yes Singer are firmly on the naughty step, it's a shame as they are works of art in my humble opinion.

I just replied to John above that by rights she is already a Bitza of sorts. problem is at the moment the split is 50/50 and to the untrained eye aesthetically you would be hard pushed to say it's not a turbo. so basis that the split is 90/10., alas when driving it's 10/90 if that makes sense so the idea is to balance that out.

My main fear is, if I start messing around too much externally there is a very fine line where it will start looking like a pigs ear. Whereas if it was a base C4/C2 the canvass is easier to work from. I have looked online and I cant seem to find any examples of Turbos that have been tweeked so to speak. But I suppose in for a penny in for a pound, maybe a leap of faith is needed.

 

[Greenman986S]

i must look up what the chassis differences, rather than bodywork differences, are on a Turbo...

 

[T8Turbo]

i must look up what the chassis differences, rather than bodywork differences, are on a Turbo...

The 996C4S is a wide bodied variant of the the Carrera and has a chassis and brakes more akin to the turbo. It will be interesting to see if the original car was a Carrera or a Carrera 4S. If jay is lucky it was a C4S so the running gear should be 'right' for the body.

 

[jay.lovell]

The 996C4S is a wide bodied variant of the the Carrera and has a chassis and brakes more akin to the turbo. It will be interesting to see if the original car was a Carrera or a Carrera 4S. If jay is lucky it was a C4S so the running gear should be 'right' for the body.

Hmmm, well the interesting part is that all the car numbers stipulate that it's registered as a C4 so unfortunately i doubt it's an "S" That being said neither of the independents I took it too got to the point of saying what was in there..... all I got was "I have never seen anything like this before", "WHY", "Very strange"

I can put a picture up and maybe someone could finally tell me what's in there ?

 

[jay.lovell]

i must look up what the chassis differences, rather than bodywork differences, are on a Turbo...

So far the engine has not dropped out the back..... so far ! As long as there are a couple of cable ties on there it'll be fine ;-)

 

[T8Turbo]

The 3.6 engine was exactly the same in the C2, C4 and C4S so that doesn't help unfortunately.

 

[T8Turbo]

A difference between the C4 and the C4S was the size of the brake discs.

A C4 would have 318mm front and 299mm rear. The C4S had the turbo's discs that measured 330mm both front and rear.

Of course you have no way of knowing whether the discs came from the original car, the turbo that donated the body or from somewhere else.

 

[jay.lovell]

A difference between the C4 and the C4S was the size of the brake discs.

A C4 would have 318mm front and 299mm rear. The C4S had the turbo's discs that measured 330mm both front and rear.

Of course you have no way of knowing whether the discs came from the original car, the turbo that donated the body or from somewhere else.

Cheers T8, for sure they are 330 front and rear as I measured them up the other day with the intention of getting them replaced ! all was going well until i stumbled across some slotted Giro Disc's on design 911 which then meant a jump to 350mm then weighing up the pro's and con's which brought matters to a grinding halt.

 

[jay.lovell]

The 3.6 engine was exactly the same in the C2, C4 and C4S so that doesn't help unfortunately.

Interesting fact that one ! so in theory if the "S" was just widebody and and wheels then it's not a complete disaster.

 

[Greenman986S]

Do the chassis and engine numbers match those on the V5?

 

[Grange]

The 996C4S is a wide bodied variant of the the Carrera and has a chassis and brakes more akin to the turbo. It will be interesting to see if the original car was a Carrera or a Carrera 4S. If jay is lucky it was a C4S so the running gear should be 'right' for the body.

I understood the brakes and suspension are the same as the Turbo, no difference on a C4S.

 

[andywill]

Rear anti roll bars differ, on the standard turbo they are 21.7mm as opposed to 20.7 for the C4s. X73 suspension turbos had 22.7mm.
Option 1 for me. good luck