multiple turbo track prep questions !

[nicksonmsport]

yes of course we will be putting up a full build thread of the project. not much point just yet as all i have done is strip the interior out the car and remove the front bumper and wings. so the car is just looking sorry for itself atm! over the next couple of weeks we will be purchasing the majority of the parts needed for the build, and once some progress starts i will start a build thread.

 

[nicksonmsport]

thanks rc salmons, that picture is helpful, so i will double check the disc size tommorrow and confirm, but as you said they look likely to be the medium blacks from mo30 turbo s/ 968cs

as said i have already been given 2 ideas of values from 944 specialists, but they differed a fair amount.
can anyone give an accurate idea of values of mo30 hubs with abs sensors, and 968 clubsport mo30 calipers with good vented (undrilled) discs, and good pads. i know mo30 hubs are very rare and most people have to use adaptors to run mo30 radial mount calipers.

many thanks
nick

 

[MarkK]

I did a whole season on Standard Turbo S brakes in my Turbo racecar,which are the same as 968 Mo30,with Pagid yellows upfront,the pedal was great and they didn't fade with ventilation in a 40 minute race,I even did a couple of hour races and no problems.I never needed Big blacks at all.They are great brakes you have already?

 

[nicksonmsport]

yes your right the brakes are already up 2 the job, but after speaking with emc today they said that for the money i could get for the hubs, it would be worth selling, and you could upgrade to big blacks or reds for pretty much nothing!

 

[MarkK]

Is there something else you have to change when going up to Big reds/blacks?I used them once on a 968 CS (was non Mo30) and the pedal always felt soft no matter how well it was bled,is there something you need to do to allow for the bigger pistons???

 

[rcsalmons]

I think I would be tempted to stick with what you have, hubs/bearing carriers stronger than stock and you wont need to use adapters.

I guess you could get £350 - £400 for the M030 hubs and may be £300 for the calipers?

New Big Blacks I guess around £650, going forward discs and pads will be a fair bit more expensive than M030.

Piston sizes are the same I think (44 & 36mm??) discs heavier, calipers/pads heavier.

Rich

 

[nicksonmsport]

hmm, maybe your right, i dont want to go adding weight really, and discs for the 928 gts are only £64+vat each.

the reason i first got interested is because i was told the setup could sell for £1k per side!! which obviously made my eyes light up!!
the next person said £1k for the lot. £1200-1400 will buy a brand new big red kit with pagid rs pads. i thought as i will need to spend £200 on pagid pads for these anyway, if i can get £1k for the setup, then it basically means upgrading to a brand new! big red kit. and revert back to std hubs and use adaptors. (which are part of the kit!)

its a tricky decision! if you think of it this way. to ensure my current setup is tip top, i would need to pay £200 for a caliper refurb, and then another £200 for pads. that means i have to spend £400.

if i sell this setup for £1k, then i will spend the same amount of money on top (+£400) and i will have a brand new set of big reds!

 

[rcsalmons]

If you could get £1k per side sell it!! If you can get £1k for the lot, may be.

I have sold a really nice set of refurbed M030 calipers for £450 in the past and the last set of hubs I saw went for £325 on ebay.

Rich

 

[944 man]

Its best to steer away from made up terms like 'big blacks' as people apply them randomly. Remember too that exactly the same caliper has been painted in different colours, so identification by colour (and randonly decided size) will lead to confusion.

 

[nick_968]

ORIGINAL: nicksonmsport

hmm, maybe your right, i dont want to go adding weight really, and discs for the 928 gts are only £64+vat each.

the reason i first got interested is because i was told the setup could sell for £1k per side!! which obviously made my eyes light up!!
the next person said £1k for the lot. £1200-1400 will buy a brand new big red kit with pagid rs pads. i thought as i will need to spend £200 on pagid pads for these anyway, if i can get £1k for the setup, then it basically means upgrading to a brand new! big red kit. and revert back to std hubs and use adaptors. (which are part of the kit!)

its a tricky decision! if you think of it this way. to ensure my current setup is tip top, i would need to pay £200 for a caliper refurb, and then another £200 for pads. that means i have to spend £400.

if i sell this setup for £1k, then i will spend the same amount of money on top (+£400) and i will have a brand new set of big reds!

Absolutely no need to go bigger than the M030 brakes, the piston sizes are the same as the bigger calipers, only difference is a bigger disc and a deeper pad = more unsprung weight and more cost to replace. The ones you have will more than cope with track use and are very good brakes.

 

[nicksonmsport]

944 man your right, after doing a load of research tonight, it seems big reds and big blacks are the same caliper painted different colors. big blacks from 928 gts, and big red from 993 turbos.
i agree that the mo30 brakes that are on the car will be fine. i just also find it hard not to be tempted by larger brakes that are literally a brand new set, for no extra than im going to spend on a set of pads and a refurb!

 

[944 man]

M030 calipers (928S4 or medium blacks) are enough for any car, in my opinion/experience. The only time that you may fit larger calipers is when M030 calipers arent available or when your budget dictates others, because, as people have mentioned, larger calipers are sometimes cheaper to buy, both new and used...


Simon

 

[Copperman05]

I agree, the only point I see in fitting the big reds or blacks are for a non m030 car as they are cheaper than the m030 option from Porsche, selling your perfectly good m030 brakes for a 'new' set of big blacks will probably just make locking up your wheels that somewhat easier and add more unwanted unsprung weight.


Edd

 

[333pg333]

Big Reds and Big Blacks are the same caliper. The reds came out with the 964TT or 965 and the Blacks with the 928 GTS. The other difference is that they mount opposite to one another. That's all. So many people moved up to Big Reds mostly on the Bling factor. I thought the piston area on the Bigs vs the Mediums was in fact larger but I don't have the info to hand. The swept pad area increases by about 33% from memory so not bad in terms of heat dissipation. Plenty of people have declared a softer pedal with the Bigs which makes me think that the piston area is larger. I guess if you can get away with the Mo30s then give it a go. My personal feeling is overall the Bigs are a better package but I think this came after finding a slotted floating rotor and custom hats which isn't cheap. Try the Mediums and see what happens. Also depends on driver, track surface, weight, tyre size and compounds blah blah...

+1 on seeing the car details.

 

[chrisg]

Nick

with regard to fabrication and motorsport it sounds as though you well versed and switched on. I would echo the sentiments of several people here who've commented on the minimal gain from upgrading your calipers.

IMHO, with a lightened car track suspension etc, unless you're running full slicks on a very hot day, the M030 calipers will be more than sufficient.

When was the last time you heard anyone say "Porsche, god they always underengineer their brake systems...." ?

If anything Porsche on their more powerful models over brake them, stick with what you've got just make sure its all in fine working order !

Chris

 

[nicksonmsport]

thanks for all the advise guys, will stick with these calipers and hubs, and refurb and run with pagids all round. tbh if the mo30 hubs are a rare option, its probably worth keeping them anyway as they will only increase in value further over the years. and will be nice to run mo30 equipment on the car.
i only asked as it was a small outlay to upgrade to newer larger brakes. even though its not entirely necessary, sometimes its nice to have big shiny bits ! anyway, will stick with the mo30 bits for now.

 

[944 man]

Seeing that the greatest cost is labour and this wont cost you anything other than time, Id consider seam welding. The rules in the PCGB (and others) forbid this of course, but all cars are seam welded, theyre just done with more care and its covered in lots of seam sealer.

Id do all around the front suspension mountings, the rear suspension mounts and, from memory, from the axle line back into the body at the front. Theres always a balance between making it stiff and leaving it safe of course, but this should be alright. Thisll give a huge improvement and only cost your time and some MIG wire and gas.


Simon

 

[Diver944]

I made the mistake of leaving my brakes as the standard 944 M030 disks and callipers after the power was boosted to 400bhp. A marginally lightened car on R Rated rubber had terminal failure for me. After the repairs I went straight to the 928GTS Big Blacks with new master cylinder and goodridge hoses and they felt absolutely awesome. No soft pedal and plenty of reserve to soak up heat in those larger disks.

I did many, many trackdays at circa 320bhp on Full race slicks with the standard M030 callipers and never had a problem. Make sure you use good track pads like PF97 and run ducting from the bumper vents right to the back of the disk and you'll be fine on a fully lightened car up to 350bhp IMHO

 

[944 man]

400bhp is mental.

 

[Diver944]

Nonsense [] It's just about right for the chassis and what Porsche should have done, also makes the rather long gearbox finally seem very close ratio'd. Just never mention the brakes to me....[:-]