Looking for a track project

[RC18B 911 turbo]

ORIGINAL: Diver944

Jon - you have mail

You do too now, sorry for the long response was busy with various bits and pieces.

Ewan I was thinking the same a turbo would probably do the job better than the S2 as I'm used to the sort of performance S6 TVRs and the Diablo offers. The 944 will be more reliable, better handling and more fun on track than any of my current steeds to be honest.

 

[Ewan]

Yes - the 944 would be more suited to a track than a Diablo, though you can hussle the big Lambo around if you man-up and get brutal with it! The track is not really the place for a V12 Lambo, though I have tracked a lightweight 2wd Gallardo (Balboni edition) and that was fun.

Modify a Turbo to between 300 and 350 bhp, change the suspension, strip the interior and fit a cage, and hey presto, a weapon that will beat any 968 CS, all for less than 10K. Possibly.

 

[RC18B 911 turbo]

In all fairness I think the newer Lambos are better suited to tracks, they have better suspension and cruicially better brakes, the Diablo certainly isn't particularly that great at stopping it must be said. I have to say that Balboni Gallardo does look like a proper driver's tool indeed.

300bhp+ is going to be quick in any lightweight car really, as much as I like the 968CS I think I would notice the lack of power, after all that is why the 944 S2 was sold in the first place.

 

[Neil Haughey]

You certainly don't notice a lack of power once the weight has been removed but this could be said of almost any track focused car. The S2 does though hit a brick wall on track at about 120 mph, from then on the acceleration is pretty slow. I have been informed that in an MX-5 race car the same wall is at about 110 mph. A fellow racer told me he was hitting a logged 145+ on the hanger straight in his 400+ Bhp GT3 cup car, my S2 gets to about 125 real speed. In other words you need a hell of a lot of power to open up big gaps due to power on UK race tracks.

I think ppl are way to obsessed with this track car=power melarkey IMHO, I am in no way the fastest guy around but I have kept up with or passed the latest road spec GT3's when on track in my S2 race car. You can brake way way latter as the terminal speed is lower and generally they have a habit of getting in the way in the corners. Even the GT3 cup cars are barely any quicker in the bends just unbelievably fast out of them.

 

[Paz]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey
Even the GT3 cup cars are barely any quicker in the bends just unbelievably fast out of them.

??

 

[944 man]

I agree with Neil here. A 'track' car isnt about horsepower: its about uncompromised dynamics (or as uncompromised as your backside or wallet can stand). Less weight and better suspension and braking makes for a far 'faster' car. Its only when youve achieved this and you can use it all, that you 'need' more horsepower.

 

[edh]

I sort of agree...

200bhp/tonne is a good place to start though.. []

 

[Diver944]

Simon is right in that a track car isn't always about horsepower but you need a requisite amount of it so that you get an adrenaline rush. If you are used to a 350bhp road car then stepping into a much lighter track car, but with only 200bhp it is going to feel a bit lethargic on the straight bits.

I tracked my standard Turbo many times and while it was always great in the bends and on the brakes due to the chassis and full slick tyres it was always very frustrating when you caught up with a powerful car and simply couldn't overtake until you'd sat behind them for a few laps and they finally moved over with a big lift. That frustration totally disappeared after the 3.2L was dropped in [8D]

Neils S2 race car is always going to be quicker over a whole lap than a road going GT3 because it is simply so much lighter and more dedicated in it's purpose. However that's not comparing like for like. A better comparison is to compare Mark Koeberles two race cars, one a 944 Turbo and the other a 968. Both are a similar weight and the same basic chassis but because of the different race series rules his Turbo had well over 300bhp but his 968 has to run pretty much factory power levels. Ask him which is quicker around the same race tracks and I'm sure he'd say the Turbo is quicker every time.

When everything else is equal - power doesn't half help [8D]

 

[MarkK]

I think most people know i love 944s/968s but i have to disagree with Neil, a road going GT3 996 MK1 never mind a Gen 2 997 settup for the track with Geo,race pads,same tyres ie Mich cups would eat a 944 S2 racecar for breakfast.To say otherwise is just silly.

 

[edh]

As we've said before, drivers make a big difference. There was a vid on pistonheads a few days ago of someone lapping Donington in a stock 996 C2 in 1.24 ish I think. There was more to come from that car, so it wouldn't be far off a good 944 racecar (s2 or even Mark's turbo), and a stock GT3 would be quicker again

Of course I did overtake a GT3 at the 'ring this year in a Suzuki Swift, so they can't be all that fast

edit : found the thread - it was a slightly modified 997C2

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I think most people know i love 944s/968s but i have to disagree with Neil, a road going GT3 996 MK1 never mind a Gen 2 997 settup for the track with Geo,race pads,same tyres ie Mich cups would eat a 944 S2 racecar for breakfast.To say otherwise is just silly.

Mark this year I only did 3 track day outings and overtook or hung with more than it was the other way round. Kevin told me I should be passing most of them if I am hanging with them he reckons I ain't going fast enough. Granted as soon as you get on a straight they power away and with all these things a good driver is going to show the cars potential.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWTOE7oseSo
Well known gt3 race driver in his 997 GT3 gets some laps in at Oulton down around 1:54 55. Ben Demetriou has done a 1:55 lap round Oulton in his 968.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: edh

As we've said before, drivers make a big difference.

Of course I did overtake a GT3 at the 'ring this year in a Suzuki Swift, so they can't be all that fast

Despite being way of the pace of the likes of Chris Dyer / Marcus Carniel I did beat 2 GT3 race cars in the races at Silverstone the other week. The driver of one of those cars has a vid of himself saying he got down to 1:16 round Combe. Have a look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF4EzMqhIKA

Have a look at this next vid from race 2 at Silverstone same driver as above in the GT3 cup car;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXRNYxO0fWA

...nice looking S2.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: 944 man

I agree with Neil here. A 'track' car isnt about horsepower: its about uncompromised dynamics (or as uncompromised as your backside or wallet can stand). Less weight and better suspension and braking makes for a far 'faster' car. Its only when youve achieved this and you can use it all, that you 'need' more horsepower.

Thank you Simon. This very last point you make is key. I am nowhere near getting 100% out of my race car, and the car itself is nowhere near 100% either. Its really shocking how much time is gained and lost from fairly simple things. Simple example say your loosing 2 mph in the corners, an amount you will probably neither see or feel. Round a long track like Silverstone Arena GP that is going to equate to 4 seconds a lap in our cars.

 

[lali]

A couple of things to take from those videos...

Im going to suggest he's a better story teller than he is a driver...
My mum steers better than that
If you hadnt have beaten him on track I'd have come and beaten you off the track...

But... he's a brave lad posting that on the web! I'd be embaressed.

I've taken my fair share of big car scalps at trackdays and Im going to have to agree with Markk, GT3's will absolutly monster a 4pot porsche, all day everyday. Unless of course you find one thats " all the gear no idea" and yes there are more of them around than you'd imagine.

like here 968 Silverstone fist 2 mins

 

[Neil Haughey]

[] I think Kev would have got me first mate, you know how it is.

To be fair I agree 100% with the other points but this wasn't the point, I think Simon put it perfectly. Sorry if I have confused the hell out of everyone.

 

[Bob]

Have you found anything yet?

A bloke nearby to me has a very scruffy S2 he is looking to get rid of, might make a good project. It has rusty sills and wings and a terribly worn interior but could be ripe for gutting and replacing with fibreglass. It apparently runs well but needs a new clutch and MOT. He was taking about £2500 but I think that's a bit hopeful