Is the 996 engine prone to blowing up?

[gaxor]

Steve

Your age and seniority has no bearing on your statements - they are not facts and your comments are merely propagating rumour.

The club is collating info relating to RMS failures - one must assume that owners feel it is in their interest to record such events, and when published will give us a realistic evaluation of the problem.

My point is that to quote mis-information within this forum as fact, with only anecdotal evidence to support the claim is at best mischievous!

 

[NicD]

Steve,

The Club has indeed made a survey of members with respect to RMS failure which has been well thrashed on this Forum. in fact, so far as I know, the only survey in the world

Check this thread http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=102495&mpage=4&key=RMS&#118606

996 RMS survey as at May05

There seems a peak failure rate in MY2001, and drop off since.

Model_yr %fail Total, RMS_failure, No failure,
1998 20.6% 136 28 108
1999 21.2% 151 32 119
2000 23.8% 84 20 64
2001 29.4% 85 25 60
2002 16.0% 150 24 126
2003 14.3% 119 17 102
2004 5.1% 79 4 75
2005 0.0% 3 0 3

As for repeat failures, these seem mercifully low, with only 12 members over all saying this. Of course, the data is only as good as the forms sent in.

I encourage members to send in any change, so we can keep the survey going, as the statistics over time will be very interesting.


I have done an analysis by model year and date and mileage the RMS was reported.

This gives very interesting results.[]

BUT the results are probably useless because: current owner was maybe unaware of RMS being replaced under warranty during first two years, or indeed by a previous owner. data reported may not be accurate.

BUT here they are anyway (all for 996) BUT VERY APROX only

Overall average 3 years and 23,000 miles

For MY98 and 99, very few failures reported for first two years of ownership, most after 5 to 7 years.

For MY00, the bulk reported after 4 to 5 years

For MY01 most at 3-4 years

For MY02, most after 3 years

For MY03, most after 2 years

 

[steve lyden brown]

Gaxor,
You are right-my age and seniority has no relevance/influence on facts, but if, as I see to be the case, you have been a PCGB member for a mere 2 or 3 Winters, and I have closely observed mails both before and since the conception of the 996, then I'd say I would cut it as a witness of some significance, whereas you'd be trailing along as an also ran. Moreover, if I have mis-quoted any information ( a fact of which I have grave doubts), then I have done so based only on the feedback of what has been consistently and widely reported as being the case here in the Forum, which has indisputably got to be the very best and most reliable a source of 996 RMS failure information available anywhere in the World ( other than other Porsche Club forums in,say, Germany or the USA, neither of which I, as a humble nonentity, have access to. But by all means please keep denying the facts ( at least those printed here in this Forum) since if nothing else it'll make me feel less inclined to worry about the need to expect to have to replace my engine.
Steve Lyden-Brown.

 

[steve lyden brown]

Wow ! Nick, as a cynical and shellbacked old boulevardier, I cannot say other than that I am extremely impressed at the response time and detail of your reply..............and only a mere hour or two since I published my message. Indeed, I am so impressed that it seems churlish to say that the only thing I could have asked for over and above the research done by the Club on this matter, is that it would have been helpful if it were to have been more widely made known, and available to all relevant parties, such as Boxster and 996 owners. Of course, to furrther exacerbate my discomfiture, this is where you say, hang on you old dodderer, it was !- did you not read the PCGB Post dated whatever ? And of course, as a member no longer, what else could I say but "Sorry, No, I didn't ! ".
Yours respectfully,
Steve Lyden-Brown.

 

[NicD]

Thank you Steve. I started the Boxster RMS survey nearly three years ago in response to demand on this and other forums. Then extended to the 996, in fact, made a follow up survey on 996.

I and the Club have made many strong representations to Porsche Cars re this and engine failures and I detected a small shift in attitude and support over the period. There has never been any admission, but they revamped the warranty to cover it and made many good will payments - with some provisos. I feel some heat has gone out of the subject, certainly so far as engine failures are concerned.

I would not have agreed the Contract of Co Operation if we in the Club could not champion causes such as this, but as always, we have to be sensative to the marque. this is why I have not publicised the results with say a large P Post article. Who would thank me for a drop in resale values?

 

[Guest]

You have all been waiting for me to chip in so here goes.....

.....it still leaks and it's on its 7th RMS. I don't have warranty because Porsche wont give me one until the RMS problem is solved in my car. For this they say I need a new engine. I can't afford a new engine. And so it goes on...... Of course the RMS problem is a manufacturing fault. No doubt about that. But they would never admit to it. And they would never give out the "real" numbers of RMS failure.

However, I took it on the Spian trip.....a tad chancy many of you might think. But the car never once gave me any problems. I loose so little oil (two drips max per month) that I haven't even had to top up the oil once either during the Spain trip nor since I returned. My engine sounds as sweet as anything and although I rant on about my RMS problems it doesn;t affect how she drives.

As to engines blowing up. I know 5 people personally who have a 996. While I was in Spain two of those people had their engine blow up! I can't say it doesn't worry the living hell out of me every time I start my car up. I absolutely sh1t myself every time. If I hear and noise I panic. I drive along listening and hoping that it wont happen to me. It's a terrible experience. But I call it "The Porsche Experience. There is no substitute". I mean even my daughter's Corsa is more reliable!

As far as I am concerned Porsche are a bunch of penny pinching b4stards! They know exactly how to fix my problem and they know how to shut me up and make me a happy camper. I am a loyal Porsche owner, this being my 3rd 911. All they have to do is replace my fecking engine and be done with it. I can then pay my £725 a year and sleep at night knowing that a great company backs the £50,000 technologically advanced German engineered car that I bought 3 years ago. But it seems they are happy to let me rip them and their crapy manufacturing f*ck up to pieces across all the Porsche forums of the Internet. So be it.

Incidentally, the worldwide service manager is a genuinly nice lady called Barbara Wilkie. I spoke to her on the phone last year while waiting for my 5th RMS to be done and replacement gearbox (Yes I have had to have one of them too and it cost me almost £3,000!). I explained my RMS problem to her and she was emphatically sympathetic and was totally understanding. At that time I had both gearbox and RMS (engine) problems. She said that if my car had been through the German network it would have been fixed without question under warranty. She could not understand why I had had so much problems with Porsche GB not sorting it all out for me. Nevertheless, she could do nothing for me and went on to explain that despite her support on the matter, if Porsche GB would not fix my car then she could not overrule them. Their decision was final. She did call Reading for me and she called me back. But she said that she could not change their minds. Porsche GB suck. If you want to buy a Porsche I suggest you stick the UK network right up themselves and go direct to Germany. They still have to honour the warranties in the UK. You get the car cheaper and the feelgood factor of knowing that Porsche GB didn't make any money on you is icing on the cake.

I might add that with the recent merger of PCGB and Porsche I was hoping that someone somewhere in PCGB would be able to convice PAG or Porsche GB to sort my flippin RMS out. But I am not holding out much hope.

 

[oliver]

Berny,

I've followed your threads and, like most readers, I have total sympathy for your situation and feel that Porsche AG and Porsche GB have made an error of judgement in not trying to reach an amicable resolution.

However, and correct me if I'm wrong, but was your car a personal import (ie the car did not come into the UK via Porsche GB)?

 

[garyandjanet]

ORIGINAL: NicD

Who would thank me for a drop in resale values?

Would not worry about that OPC are already taking the p*** on this already.

 

[944Turbo]

I would not buy a 996 now, (excluding GT3 or GT2 if I had the spare money []) there is the RMS issue and there are also an alarming number of total failures. A specialist told me the crankcase is not strong enough and flexes. For these reasons resale value is going to be affected, and these cars will keep falling in value. I believe the earlier cars were not engineered to be just good enough (pre 996 ) but were over engineered for the task. For this reason I think the earlier cars will provide better long term value and may outlast some of their younger brothers.
Having said that conversly this also means you may get a great 996/boxster at a very good price but with the risk of having to replace the engine at some point. I guess this could mean that aircooled 996's will be running around in the future as earlier engines are fitted to later cars [].
Tony
Off to research merging 996/964 engines

 

[Mark_Bennett]

If there was too much of a problem, Porsche would surely have developed a different engine for the 987/997 ranges?
They haven't, so it is evidenty low enough in number of failures (inside warranty, original or extended) that Porsche are happy to continue with the M96 design and pay for warranty failures.

 

[oliver]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

I would not buy a 996 now, (excluding GT3 or GT2 if I had the spare money []) there is the RMS issue and there are also an alarming number of total failures. A specialist told me the crankcase is not strong enough and flexes. For these reasons resale value is going to be affected, and these cars will keep falling in value. I believe the earlier cars were not engineered to be just good enough (pre 996 ) but were over engineered for the task. For this reason I think the earlier cars will provide better long term value and may outlast some of their younger brothers.
Having said that conversly this also means you may get a great 996/boxster at a very good price but with the risk of having to replace the engine at some point. I guess this could mean that aircooled 996's will be running around in the future as earlier engines are fitted to later cars [].
Tony
Off to research merging 996/964 engines

I think this sums up much of the mis-information that travels around the various forums.

No one posts 'no news' or 'good news' but any 'bad news' gets blown out of proportion.

If there was a serious issue with the engines in the 986/987 and 996/997 then it would be headline news in the mainstream media, OPCs would be overwhelmed with remedial work and Porsche would have redesigned the engines. And, you wouldn't be able to buy an extended warranty for £725.

 

[944Turbo]

Mmmmmmm....... sell car 50K

replace some engines under warranty
and
3? years later sell engines plus labour further £8K+ to some unlucky owners

or
Redesign engine and retool £?? million

Tempting to risk it?

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: oliver

I think this sums up much of the mis-information that travels around the various forums.

No one posts 'no news' or 'good news' but any 'bad news' gets blown out of proportion.

If there was a serious issue with the engines in the 986/987 and 996/997 then it would be headline news in the mainstream media, OPCs would be overwhelmed with remedial work and Porsche would have redesigned the engines. And, you wouldn't be able to buy an extended warranty for £725.

Mis-information it may be but it is definately affecting values.
Can you buy a £725 warranty on a 5 year old or 100,000 mile plus example. Will it have exclusions? (trackday use etc.)

IMHO One failure would be bad on an OPC maintained car but there are many more than one.

Tony

 

[Beaky]

Ops!!! looks like I opened a can of worms here and I didn't even mention the expansion tank issue....................

 

[Mark_Bennett]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Can you buy a £725 warranty on a 5 year old or 100,000 mile plus example.

Yes - up to 9 years

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Will it have exclusions? (trackday use etc.)

No

 

[gaxor]

Steve

Your responses using 4 letter words are hardly mature!

I gracefully withdraw from this discussion as it is now clearly apparant that it has been engineered to hijack the forum

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: Mark Bennett

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Can you buy a £725 warranty on a 5 year old or 100,000 mile plus example.

Yes - up to 9 years

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

Will it have exclusions? (trackday use etc.)

No

Oooooh now that is clever!


9 x £725 = £6525 I assume you have to stick with OPC servicing (or annual inspections) to qualify for the warranty. 9 x annual service profit + £XX.


So then who would stick with it for 9 years if there wasn't an unnusally high number of failures?

Say 10% fail ( I Hope I am exagerating) that means if 50% take up the warranty you are onto a major winner.

The warranty cases will be dealt with relatively smoothly - the press advises those who buy the car take out the cast iron warranty and cant see what the fuss is about. Customers dont complain too much as the problem was sorted 'under warranty' excellent service etc.

The others, sorry sir if you had taken up the warranty we would love to help you, this failure is most unusual.

Sit back and watch the profits roll in.

Re-enter motorsport and return the Halo effect.

Wow

Tony

 

[DavidO]

9 x £725 = £6525 I assume you have to stick with OPC servicing (or annual inspections) to qualify for the warranty. 9 x annual service profit + £XX.

Not so, as warranty is supplied in initial years

So then who would stick with it for 9 years if there wasn't an unnusally high number of failures?

Wouldn't most people be more inclined to hang on to the warranty, the older the car became?. With Beemer, the extended warranty is only available if never allowed to lapse in the first place. At least with Porsche the extended warranty is available after OPC inspection even if the original warranty had never been renewed. Personally I would have taken the warranty for peace of mind, even if there had never been a single RMS or engine failure.

 

[oliver]

A Warranty is just an insurance policy. The underwriter will assess the likely risk, not for individual cars but for the model as a whole, and determine a premium that provides a safe margin of profit. Most warranty claims are for fairly modest amounts, usually less than the premium.

Although the Porsche manufacturer's warranty is only two years, even if the warranty is not extended, many items will be covered thereafter, in whole or in part, under a 'sympathetic' warranty claim. However, the conditions are a bit vague and tend to favour longstanding customers with UK OPC supplied cars wth full OPC service histories. I know this because I have benefitted a couple of times, most notably with a 944 turbo I bought in 1987 that incurred problems in year 3.

Much of the above comments in this thread apply to many other makes and models. The BMW E46 M3 and E39 M5 get slagged off on the various forums and they all say never buy one without the official warranty. And you would never buy any of the various cars that use the Rover K-series engine if you believed what gets said on the forums.

IME, for such focussed performance cars, the 986 and 996 are staggeringly reliable. I've had 12 new Porsches since 1983, including two 996s, and can't fault them. My wife has just taken delivery of her fourth Boxster since 1997 and I can't recall any faults beyond one RMS (dealt with under warranty at the annual service) and a loose pipe on the screen washer tank.

 

[Guest]

Porsche are running a business.
I do not see why you should be surprised that the warranty scheme is designed to at least cover costs, and preferably to make a profit.
All elements of your interaction with the company are designed to deliver money - e.g. initial purchase, 2nd hand purcase, trade in price, servicing, financing, extended warranty, accessories/enhancements, bodyshop.

They will only cover their costs on the warranty if the number of failures is relatively small per year and if sufficient numbers of people take it up.
Take-up is largely influenced by pricing - and for a car of this type I think the cost is not that unreasonable.
The warranty has to cover all manner of corrective actions for many minor and unrelated items, that may also consume many of those 700 notes, in addition to the big items.

With regard to the original topic though, it is all down to statistics.
You cannot say whether an individual car will fail.
If you have one that does not, you can't see what the fuss is about - although you can drive about fretting if you wish and swap to a another vendor with a more chequered history (such as any Italian make, or other beginning with A).
If you have one that does, it is of little consequence that other people are alright.

The main reason for people to be concerned, is not that they fail - every manufacturer has issues. The primary concern seems to be the cost of replacement.
Given that volumes are higher than they used to be, the pricings ought to be coming down the cost curve, so parts ought to be slightly cheaper than they are, IMO, for a C2 or C4. GT3/2 and TT parts will be more expensive due to the more limited numbers.
It should also be remembered that the cars do not cost 60K new because they have 15K of parts inside them. The cost of replacing the parts will be high, even if you only bought it for a tenner.

Although this may not help, if you buy new you know the history. You know it has not been overreved, thrashed when cold, driven with too little oil, spun, driven by a 0-60 maniac, or had the gearbox abused. All these things could cause later failures.
The reason 2nd hand cars cost less is because you are buying uncertainty.
Therefore get the warranty - or stick 10K in the bank and cover the issues when they occur.