Flywheel for a 951
- Thread starter Ewan
- Start date
nicksonmsport
New member
probably different but i have a flywheel from an s2??
have seen lightened flywheels on ebay for around £500
have seen lightened flywheels on ebay for around £500
Beaky has a lightened flywheel and I was really disappointed after fitting it. Previous cars have changed quite noticeably when fitted with a lightened flywheel, it seemed to make no discernible difference on the 944. Granted it wasn't the lightest light there ever was but I am assuming the balancer shaft arrangement is throwing inertia into the mix which removes the zing of previous efforts. On a plus side it didn't dramatically upset the idle.
Ewan
New member
I was told by JMG that an official Porsche one was £430 plus vat. Hence the design911 one at £250 plus Vat seemed good value. But it so transpired that they couldn't actually get hold of that one anytime soon, but they could do an original Porsche part for £370 plus Vat.
So I called the offical Porsche Center at Exeter, and hey presto, £315 plus Vat. Once again, a main dealer seems to the quickest and cheapest option.
So I called the offical Porsche Center at Exeter, and hey presto, £315 plus Vat. Once again, a main dealer seems to the quickest and cheapest option.
Indi9xx
New member
Official list price from Porsche £351.32 Plus VAT none in the UK, has to come from Germany.
The official Porsche retail price for a genuine one £351.32 Plus VAT. Still none in the UK, has to come from Germany. Would be with us by the weekend.
Exeter Price £315 + Vat. Still none in the UK, has to come from Germany to them, then from them to us, will be with us early next week.
£429+VAT is our price with the item being overnight despatched by fedex to get to us in the morning.
The part not getting to us in the morning means that car needs to be removed from the lift as soon as we run out of things we can do to her. Which in turn means having to package up all the removed parts of the car, label them up and put them into storage, completely remove the driveshafts (rather than them just hanging where the transaxle was), and put the car into storage, all of which will take time and cost money, so the fedex overnight of the flywheel price seemed like the most viable option versus the additional labour.
The other issue is of course we book up weeks in advance, if a car which has a slot in it now, can not be proceeded with, then there is a chance that when the parts turn up, we might not be able to continue with that car until the next opening in the diary appears, which could be a couple of days, or possibly a couple of weeks!
In the past, some customers have either complained to us, or on forums, that their cars have been with us for an excessive amount of time. Often this was caused by waiting for suppliers or delivery of parts, or generally trying to save the customer money. Where it has been identified that a customer has complained of speed being an issue here, we tend to aim for speed as a priority. Where a customer has in the past has complained of price being an issue, we work with price being their priority.
Customer expectations are often really hard to judge. This flywheel is a great example of how we can work with a priority of speed, or a priority of cost, in this case, both options have the end effect of being about equal when additional costs come into play, so the choice was to quote for speed.
The other problem is managing customer expectations of quality or perhaps the better word is perfectionism. In the past we have always tried to judge customer expectations on the basis of what we know of that customer. Only bothering a customer about an issue with their car, if we believe the issue would bother that customer. For example (maybe not a great example) would be us not telling a customer with a completely trashed interior of every item in the interior trim we recommend they change. Instead opting to tell the customer once the big issues with the car have been dealt with, that we can help them with their interior should they want to improve it. and generally working towards the car being perfect, but talking about the biggest issues first and seeing how the customer wants to deal with them, to judge if the customer would be interested in the next level of perfection.
What this highlights is that it is really important to make sure your specialist (if you use one) knows what you want.. Is speed of turnaround an issue to you? Is the cost being as low as possible an issue? Do you want your car to be perfect? and then making sure that you are sure about this 100% and are happy to stick to it.. Because if the specialist sees you saying one thing, either in person, or in a forum post, and then your actions or what you authorise communicates something different, that specialist will make decisions and price jobs based on what they think you actually want from them.
Bit wordy.. and absolutely in no means a dig at Ewan, but an explanation of the price of the flywheel and the importance of communicating expectations, because its not easy being a specialist, managing the logistics of customers cars and meeting their expectations.
In any case, Porsche centre Exeter have once again done a sterling job of giving a great mail order price for a part, one that we would not be able to match in this case, but it is a long time to wait for a part from Germany.
The official Porsche retail price for a genuine one £351.32 Plus VAT. Still none in the UK, has to come from Germany. Would be with us by the weekend.
Exeter Price £315 + Vat. Still none in the UK, has to come from Germany to them, then from them to us, will be with us early next week.
£429+VAT is our price with the item being overnight despatched by fedex to get to us in the morning.
The part not getting to us in the morning means that car needs to be removed from the lift as soon as we run out of things we can do to her. Which in turn means having to package up all the removed parts of the car, label them up and put them into storage, completely remove the driveshafts (rather than them just hanging where the transaxle was), and put the car into storage, all of which will take time and cost money, so the fedex overnight of the flywheel price seemed like the most viable option versus the additional labour.
The other issue is of course we book up weeks in advance, if a car which has a slot in it now, can not be proceeded with, then there is a chance that when the parts turn up, we might not be able to continue with that car until the next opening in the diary appears, which could be a couple of days, or possibly a couple of weeks!
In the past, some customers have either complained to us, or on forums, that their cars have been with us for an excessive amount of time. Often this was caused by waiting for suppliers or delivery of parts, or generally trying to save the customer money. Where it has been identified that a customer has complained of speed being an issue here, we tend to aim for speed as a priority. Where a customer has in the past has complained of price being an issue, we work with price being their priority.
Customer expectations are often really hard to judge. This flywheel is a great example of how we can work with a priority of speed, or a priority of cost, in this case, both options have the end effect of being about equal when additional costs come into play, so the choice was to quote for speed.
The other problem is managing customer expectations of quality or perhaps the better word is perfectionism. In the past we have always tried to judge customer expectations on the basis of what we know of that customer. Only bothering a customer about an issue with their car, if we believe the issue would bother that customer. For example (maybe not a great example) would be us not telling a customer with a completely trashed interior of every item in the interior trim we recommend they change. Instead opting to tell the customer once the big issues with the car have been dealt with, that we can help them with their interior should they want to improve it. and generally working towards the car being perfect, but talking about the biggest issues first and seeing how the customer wants to deal with them, to judge if the customer would be interested in the next level of perfection.
What this highlights is that it is really important to make sure your specialist (if you use one) knows what you want.. Is speed of turnaround an issue to you? Is the cost being as low as possible an issue? Do you want your car to be perfect? and then making sure that you are sure about this 100% and are happy to stick to it.. Because if the specialist sees you saying one thing, either in person, or in a forum post, and then your actions or what you authorise communicates something different, that specialist will make decisions and price jobs based on what they think you actually want from them.
Bit wordy.. and absolutely in no means a dig at Ewan, but an explanation of the price of the flywheel and the importance of communicating expectations, because its not easy being a specialist, managing the logistics of customers cars and meeting their expectations.
In any case, Porsche centre Exeter have once again done a sterling job of giving a great mail order price for a part, one that we would not be able to match in this case, but it is a long time to wait for a part from Germany.
George Elliott
New member
Bob
I thought it was a reasonably detailed explanation of the practical reality of the running a motor repair workshop, plus a bit about the costs and cost to save cost. It reminds me of the quite complex reality of meeting the expectations of Customers in the food industry where I work.
My only experience of JMG was asking to have a car put on one of the Lifts there to allow me to inspect it and check the LSD. I don't recall an invoice in the post, so - well, pretty decent really I thought. Imagine an OPC response to that....!
I have a Sachs Motorsport Clutch which was in the car when I got it, not sure of the spec - JMG may chime in as they supply them, but its a tougher unit than Std.
George
944t
I thought it was a reasonably detailed explanation of the practical reality of the running a motor repair workshop, plus a bit about the costs and cost to save cost. It reminds me of the quite complex reality of meeting the expectations of Customers in the food industry where I work.
My only experience of JMG was asking to have a car put on one of the Lifts there to allow me to inspect it and check the LSD. I don't recall an invoice in the post, so - well, pretty decent really I thought. Imagine an OPC response to that....!
I have a Sachs Motorsport Clutch which was in the car when I got it, not sure of the spec - JMG may chime in as they supply them, but its a tougher unit than Std.
George
944t
Indi9xx
New member
I can find the original manufacturer for just about any part for a Porsche, but several parts do not seem to be made outside of Porsche, such as engine blocks, heads, cranks and flywheels, not to mention a few other castings and machined castings.
This means that the only supplier in some cases are Porsche.
Porsche centre Exeter is a smaller main dealer, and I have always suspected they do not have the same volume of car sales and workshop business because they have always been really keen on their mail order pricing, and I would always recommend people give them a try for genuine Porsche parts via mail order, where it seems only the genuine part is on the market.
I think there are also issues with Porsche centre Exeter supplying an Indi like JMG, where we are within two miles of another main dealer, so you the buying public will probably get a better deal from them, than they will give me.
If I buy this part from Porsche GB, I will get a 5% discount on the retail price as shown on the Porsche parts database used by the main dealers as well as independents such as JMG. On other parts we would get up to 20%, although that is rare, but we usually pass on the price we buy it for to our workshop and mail order customers.
If a part is not in the UK, and we order from the UK distribution centre, the parts will come in one of 3 to 5 containers of parts which arrive from Germany each week, will go to the UK distribution centre near Reading, and then will arrive with us the following day. Usually, this is about 3 days from the day of ordering.
I also have the facility to buy direct from the Porsche distribution centre in Germany. The only problem is, then you pay shipping, which on a heavy flywheel is expensive.
Buying from Exeter of course means that the parts need to wait for those containers, then be shipped from the distribution centre to Exeter, which then needs to be shipped to the customer who has ordered it, hence the week before it turns up.
I can usually beat even Exeter's prices for parts where OEM parts are available of course, as there is not the "Porsche box premium" added when buying from say Bosch for an distributor cap, sensor etc. Sometimes the discounts for going OEM are massive.
Other parts we have manufactured, which means even larger savings for the customer.
However, a lot of customers do not realise the cost implications of delaying authorisation, or choosing another supplier for parts when their car is dismantled and needs a part which was not expected. These costs are the labour time to make the car safe to be removed from a lift, be moved from the workshop, all its parts bagged up and the car and parts put into storage. This is especially important when at any one time there may be 7 944's over the course of the next week in the workshop and some of those having similar work performed, along with 20 other Porsche. Without taking the time to label and store all the parts it would be too easy for parts to be misplaced or even installed back onto the wrong car.
And I think that was the main point of the post from me. A big problem for all kinds of garages is what happens when a car is dismantled for work to be performed and further problems are found. Which becomes a logistical and financial problem if the customer is not obtainable to give authorisation to perform the additional work, the parts are not immediately available, or the customer wants to supply parts via mail order from elsewhere and they will take a long time to arrive.
Usually, as long as we are promptly given authorisation to proceed, we take it on the chin with the additional labour to put the car semi back together, to proceed with it later when parts turn up, because we see it as our almost problem that the parts are not in stock in the UK. A little like George's example, we tend not to charge for a lot of stuff where we feel we are being helpful. However, this does mean that emergency parts, will be ordered with courier charges on top if the only other option will be long delays and additional labour.
Of course when a car is booked in, usually all the parts required are put into stock (if not normal stock items) before the car even arrives. Which means the customer gets the very best price. However this occasion that option was not available to us.
With Ewans car, the main issue was an oil leak from the sump gasket and rear main seal, which is why we were working in that area. Once we had it apart, we found that it would seem at some point in the cars past the clutch had been allowed to wear down to the rivets, which damaged the flywheel. But instead of changing the flywheel, instead they installed a new clutch alone. Which is also in line with an observation from Ewan that the clutch sometimes seemed to be not fully disengaging. Both the clutch and the flywheel are beyond repair, which is why the flywheel was even needed.
Ewan has always been a good customer, and will not be paying for the additional labour to put his car back together and store it up, although as a rule if a job requires additional labour, someone needs to pay for that, otherwise it is not fair to other customers who would have to subsidise this kind of wasted workshop time with higher labour rates.
In particular, since the start of the recession, being a Porsche specialist has become more problematic, and possibly not how you would expect. In particular, the problem has been people dropping off their cars for jobs to be performed, and then during the course of the job getting authorisation for anything additional has become a protracted affair, with anything up to 20 cars here waiting for authorisation at any one time, with many of the people asking for time to think about it. Unfortunately, this puts the workshop under massive strain to work out logistics with jobs put on pause and only limited workshop lifts (4) and additional workshop bays (5), which means we are constantly trying to keep the workshop flowing. This means that if an urgent part is needed to continue with a job, the customer will be quoted the price of the part that can be obtained quickly.
The last problem is that over the last few of years there have been criticisms that as JMG have grown it has taken longer for some jobs to be performed, in some cases not all the truth has been mentioned on this and other forums about the reasons why a car has been here so long, however in other cases it can be because we are so busy, often booked up for 2 to 4 weeks in advance (fully booked) that if additional work is required, a part is delayed or a customer is not quick to authorise things, then the next available space for the work to be continued could be up to 4 weeks later. So as you can understand in relation to comments on forums, we now have policies in place to make things much quicker at JMG, which includes fast tracking parts and reserving additional spaces in the diary for "unexpected work"
Its not easy to please everyone, but wherever possible we are *trying* to please everyone.
This means that the only supplier in some cases are Porsche.
Porsche centre Exeter is a smaller main dealer, and I have always suspected they do not have the same volume of car sales and workshop business because they have always been really keen on their mail order pricing, and I would always recommend people give them a try for genuine Porsche parts via mail order, where it seems only the genuine part is on the market.
I think there are also issues with Porsche centre Exeter supplying an Indi like JMG, where we are within two miles of another main dealer, so you the buying public will probably get a better deal from them, than they will give me.
If I buy this part from Porsche GB, I will get a 5% discount on the retail price as shown on the Porsche parts database used by the main dealers as well as independents such as JMG. On other parts we would get up to 20%, although that is rare, but we usually pass on the price we buy it for to our workshop and mail order customers.
If a part is not in the UK, and we order from the UK distribution centre, the parts will come in one of 3 to 5 containers of parts which arrive from Germany each week, will go to the UK distribution centre near Reading, and then will arrive with us the following day. Usually, this is about 3 days from the day of ordering.
I also have the facility to buy direct from the Porsche distribution centre in Germany. The only problem is, then you pay shipping, which on a heavy flywheel is expensive.
Buying from Exeter of course means that the parts need to wait for those containers, then be shipped from the distribution centre to Exeter, which then needs to be shipped to the customer who has ordered it, hence the week before it turns up.
I can usually beat even Exeter's prices for parts where OEM parts are available of course, as there is not the "Porsche box premium" added when buying from say Bosch for an distributor cap, sensor etc. Sometimes the discounts for going OEM are massive.
Other parts we have manufactured, which means even larger savings for the customer.
However, a lot of customers do not realise the cost implications of delaying authorisation, or choosing another supplier for parts when their car is dismantled and needs a part which was not expected. These costs are the labour time to make the car safe to be removed from a lift, be moved from the workshop, all its parts bagged up and the car and parts put into storage. This is especially important when at any one time there may be 7 944's over the course of the next week in the workshop and some of those having similar work performed, along with 20 other Porsche. Without taking the time to label and store all the parts it would be too easy for parts to be misplaced or even installed back onto the wrong car.
And I think that was the main point of the post from me. A big problem for all kinds of garages is what happens when a car is dismantled for work to be performed and further problems are found. Which becomes a logistical and financial problem if the customer is not obtainable to give authorisation to perform the additional work, the parts are not immediately available, or the customer wants to supply parts via mail order from elsewhere and they will take a long time to arrive.
Usually, as long as we are promptly given authorisation to proceed, we take it on the chin with the additional labour to put the car semi back together, to proceed with it later when parts turn up, because we see it as our almost problem that the parts are not in stock in the UK. A little like George's example, we tend not to charge for a lot of stuff where we feel we are being helpful. However, this does mean that emergency parts, will be ordered with courier charges on top if the only other option will be long delays and additional labour.
Of course when a car is booked in, usually all the parts required are put into stock (if not normal stock items) before the car even arrives. Which means the customer gets the very best price. However this occasion that option was not available to us.
With Ewans car, the main issue was an oil leak from the sump gasket and rear main seal, which is why we were working in that area. Once we had it apart, we found that it would seem at some point in the cars past the clutch had been allowed to wear down to the rivets, which damaged the flywheel. But instead of changing the flywheel, instead they installed a new clutch alone. Which is also in line with an observation from Ewan that the clutch sometimes seemed to be not fully disengaging. Both the clutch and the flywheel are beyond repair, which is why the flywheel was even needed.
Ewan has always been a good customer, and will not be paying for the additional labour to put his car back together and store it up, although as a rule if a job requires additional labour, someone needs to pay for that, otherwise it is not fair to other customers who would have to subsidise this kind of wasted workshop time with higher labour rates.
In particular, since the start of the recession, being a Porsche specialist has become more problematic, and possibly not how you would expect. In particular, the problem has been people dropping off their cars for jobs to be performed, and then during the course of the job getting authorisation for anything additional has become a protracted affair, with anything up to 20 cars here waiting for authorisation at any one time, with many of the people asking for time to think about it. Unfortunately, this puts the workshop under massive strain to work out logistics with jobs put on pause and only limited workshop lifts (4) and additional workshop bays (5), which means we are constantly trying to keep the workshop flowing. This means that if an urgent part is needed to continue with a job, the customer will be quoted the price of the part that can be obtained quickly.
The last problem is that over the last few of years there have been criticisms that as JMG have grown it has taken longer for some jobs to be performed, in some cases not all the truth has been mentioned on this and other forums about the reasons why a car has been here so long, however in other cases it can be because we are so busy, often booked up for 2 to 4 weeks in advance (fully booked) that if additional work is required, a part is delayed or a customer is not quick to authorise things, then the next available space for the work to be continued could be up to 4 weeks later. So as you can understand in relation to comments on forums, we now have policies in place to make things much quicker at JMG, which includes fast tracking parts and reserving additional spaces in the diary for "unexpected work"
Its not easy to please everyone, but wherever possible we are *trying* to please everyone.
Ewan
New member
In response to Bob, and as mentioned by Jon, the original problem I had was a slight oil leak. When investigating this Jon discovered the poor condition of the clutch and flywheel, so I've authorised their replacement. I'm also having Jon fit his race-shift shortened gear change at the same time. So there'll be no slop in my lever any more.
The worn clutch/flywheel was evident by the occasional graunching noise when moving down from second to first when slowing to stationary. Or then when re-engaging first from neutral whilst waiting at traffic lights (for example). But changing gears up and down the box while actually moving was generally fine. It was just when stationary that the problem was evident.
And Alasdair, if I'd have known you had a spare flywheel I would have had it from you, but it's too late now. Never mind. My loss!
The slight delay with the flywheel has given Jon the time to talk me into a few more little jobs. So new fuel lines it is then. And a stainless steel Dansk back box. And new door and rear hatch seals.
Which brings the list of jobs Jon has overseen on my car to:
new tyres, refurbished wheels, wheel re-alignment, new break discs and pads, new caliper slider plates, new break lines, new adjustable Koni inserts, upgraded castor mounts, new anti-roll bar bushes, reconditioned power steering rack with new pump, new steerign shaft, new handbrake cables and mechanism, new clutch slave cylinder and hose, new ported engine head, new head gasket, new water pump, chip set, dual port wastegate, boost controller, dump valve, upgraded fuel pump and 3 bar FPR, de-cat exhaust, new knock sensor, new coolant header tank, new coolant pipes, new radiator, new drive shafts, new gearbox mounts, new engine mounts, various new switches/relays/sensors, new fluids, new plugs, dizzy cap, rotor arm, new sunroof mechanism, and now - new fuel lines, clutch, flywheel, various seals, exhaust back box. And a load of little jobs such as trim sticking, bulb changing, wiper blades, rattle eliminating...
I could be wrong, but I think JMG have been pleased to see me over the last year or so!
The worn clutch/flywheel was evident by the occasional graunching noise when moving down from second to first when slowing to stationary. Or then when re-engaging first from neutral whilst waiting at traffic lights (for example). But changing gears up and down the box while actually moving was generally fine. It was just when stationary that the problem was evident.
And Alasdair, if I'd have known you had a spare flywheel I would have had it from you, but it's too late now. Never mind. My loss!
The slight delay with the flywheel has given Jon the time to talk me into a few more little jobs. So new fuel lines it is then. And a stainless steel Dansk back box. And new door and rear hatch seals.
Which brings the list of jobs Jon has overseen on my car to:
new tyres, refurbished wheels, wheel re-alignment, new break discs and pads, new caliper slider plates, new break lines, new adjustable Koni inserts, upgraded castor mounts, new anti-roll bar bushes, reconditioned power steering rack with new pump, new steerign shaft, new handbrake cables and mechanism, new clutch slave cylinder and hose, new ported engine head, new head gasket, new water pump, chip set, dual port wastegate, boost controller, dump valve, upgraded fuel pump and 3 bar FPR, de-cat exhaust, new knock sensor, new coolant header tank, new coolant pipes, new radiator, new drive shafts, new gearbox mounts, new engine mounts, various new switches/relays/sensors, new fluids, new plugs, dizzy cap, rotor arm, new sunroof mechanism, and now - new fuel lines, clutch, flywheel, various seals, exhaust back box. And a load of little jobs such as trim sticking, bulb changing, wiper blades, rattle eliminating...
I could be wrong, but I think JMG have been pleased to see me over the last year or so!
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