Report And Results Now Posted On R18 Web Page
CONCOURS RESULTS
- Thread starter Rubber_Man
- Start date
Guest
New member
Ok - I' ve had a look and I' m not even on the results!
I know I had to leave before any announcement (by 3.45 there was still no apparent movement on results) but I still travelled 90 miles to get there and sat around all day waiting for some announcement or notification of something happening - I would have thought the least I deserved was some notification of how I did!
I do realise that organising this sort of thing is difficult but there were no results available at 3 as stated and there was no information forthcoming at any time during the day.
Roy
I know I had to leave before any announcement (by 3.45 there was still no apparent movement on results) but I still travelled 90 miles to get there and sat around all day waiting for some announcement or notification of something happening - I would have thought the least I deserved was some notification of how I did!
I do realise that organising this sort of thing is difficult but there were no results available at 3 as stated and there was no information forthcoming at any time during the day.
Roy
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
Maybe roy you would help me with region 8 concours Ive no idea how to do it and nobody seems to want to help...
please do remember that most of us are volenteers we do not claim to be experts.
please do remember that most of us are volenteers we do not claim to be experts.
Guest
New member
Helen,
Some points for discussion with regard to entering a Concours.
At a recent Regional Concours I am told that a member had 10 points deducted from his total score, because his car wore new wheels and tyres which, although they were genuine Porsche, were not original to the year of the car.
What are the Judges looking for a) A car that is perfect and original in very respect.
Or, b) a very well looked after and maintained car, which is a Members pride and Joy.
a) For the National Class?
b) For the Street Class?
c) For a Fun Class ?
Some Registers and Regions run, A Fun Concours, which all the entrants participate in the judging. This type of event creates a "club" atmosphere with some interesting social and technical conversation. This may not be given full approval status by the purists. But you paid your money and take your choice!
Ken
964 Register Secretary
Helen Goff
No.1 Poster
Ken thanks for that but one of my main problems is that all the judges i' ve approtched have said they are not interested anymore as they are fed up with the *arguments and bad feelings that are thrown at them afterwards.
*my version of what they said to me,as i couldn' t repeat the terms used.
*my version of what they said to me,as i couldn' t repeat the terms used.
Guest
New member
Helen as I said, if the members do the judging, then you get over the problem of finding " Official Judges"
I am sure that Mary Kelley would explain the method of marking that the London Region used very successfully last year. Also IF you are interested in doing something a bit different, I can let you look at the; Entry Forms & Judging forms that we use for the 964 Register Fun Concours. Give me your address and I will post them over the weekend. ( You will still get criticised, but that goes with the territory)
Regards
Ken
Guest
New member
Helen - the only thing I can say is get the thing organised properly and let everyone know what is going on.
I turned up at 10am for a 10.30 start after driving 90 miles through rain. There was nobody in the organisers tent so I set to, along with everybody else, trying to get the car prepared. At 10.30 (the official start time) I told my brother we would have to stop and we went for a coffee. When we came back out about three quarters of an hour later people were still preparing their cars! (not just ' leathering off' either - cleaning inside and out and working on the engine compartment) - I chose to leave mine alone as ' those were the rules'
We then kicked our heels for what seemed like an eternity - After seeing my car judged I put all my things back in the car and waited to see what was going to happen and waited, and waited .....
At about 3.10pm (by which time we' d walked around the car park dozens of times looked at the ' stands' as if they were one of these tray memory tests you get at really boring parties) I asked what when we would get some results. I was told ' about 20 minutes' So we waited again.
At about 3.45 there was still no movement (this was nearly 6 hours after arriving) or information forthcoming so we left (I had made arrangements to be home by a certain time)
The next day I e-mailed one of the organisers to ask how I did - no reply. I then saw this post and checked the results - I' m not even listed!! so made the first reply in this list - no reply from the organisers.
To anyone who is interested in entering a club concours I would say forget it - it' s a total waste of time.
On many club events in the past I have been left with the impression that the event is run for the benefit of a few using the subscriptions of the many - I' m afraid that this event merely reinforced this.
Anyone who thinks this smacks of sour grapes please remember - I didn' t get any result at all so I' m not saying " my car was better than yours and you beat me by two points" I would just like to know how I genuinely got on (because I' ll never do it again)
Roy
PS anyone know if it' s possible to change region?
I turned up at 10am for a 10.30 start after driving 90 miles through rain. There was nobody in the organisers tent so I set to, along with everybody else, trying to get the car prepared. At 10.30 (the official start time) I told my brother we would have to stop and we went for a coffee. When we came back out about three quarters of an hour later people were still preparing their cars! (not just ' leathering off' either - cleaning inside and out and working on the engine compartment) - I chose to leave mine alone as ' those were the rules'
We then kicked our heels for what seemed like an eternity - After seeing my car judged I put all my things back in the car and waited to see what was going to happen and waited, and waited .....
At about 3.10pm (by which time we' d walked around the car park dozens of times looked at the ' stands' as if they were one of these tray memory tests you get at really boring parties) I asked what when we would get some results. I was told ' about 20 minutes' So we waited again.
At about 3.45 there was still no movement (this was nearly 6 hours after arriving) or information forthcoming so we left (I had made arrangements to be home by a certain time)
The next day I e-mailed one of the organisers to ask how I did - no reply. I then saw this post and checked the results - I' m not even listed!! so made the first reply in this list - no reply from the organisers.
To anyone who is interested in entering a club concours I would say forget it - it' s a total waste of time.
On many club events in the past I have been left with the impression that the event is run for the benefit of a few using the subscriptions of the many - I' m afraid that this event merely reinforced this.
Anyone who thinks this smacks of sour grapes please remember - I didn' t get any result at all so I' m not saying " my car was better than yours and you beat me by two points" I would just like to know how I genuinely got on (because I' ll never do it again)
Roy
PS anyone know if it' s possible to change region?
Guest
New member
As a PCGB member you are free to attend any Region' s activities. Don' t have to change regions to do so.
Also all Regions and Registers are always looking for Helpers and Committee members, so If you would like to see things done better. Just volunteer your services, which I am sure will be gratefully accepted.
Ken
964 Register Secretary
Roy
When did you last have a look at R18 web site news? Results were amended yesterday.
Why didn' t you contact the event orgainser Barry Smith, on the day, or me, if you had a problem.
Before you earn the right to criticise how events are run, you should have organised some yourself!!
I am always looking for volunteers to offer assistance in orgaanising events
What are you prepared to organise for R18 next year? You can then show us all how it should be done.
Regards
David Baker
Regional Organiser R18
When did you last have a look at R18 web site news? Results were amended yesterday.
Why didn' t you contact the event orgainser Barry Smith, on the day, or me, if you had a problem.
Before you earn the right to criticise how events are run, you should have organised some yourself!!
I am always looking for volunteers to offer assistance in orgaanising events
What are you prepared to organise for R18 next year? You can then show us all how it should be done.
Regards
David Baker
Regional Organiser R18
Guest
New member
David
I checked the results twice before posting my initial response - as no response was forthcoming I assumed nothing had been changed. My reply to Helen simply related my experiences and frustrations at what had gone on. Personally I think it would have been wrong of me to interrupt a judge either whilst looking at a car or whilst considering marks so I did not do so. When I did ask for a timescale I was told 20 minutes (this was at about 3.10) and nothing had happened by 3.45 - I did not complain or make any fuss at this point but simply left (acknowledging the judges as I left) - it is not the judges fault that things had taken longer to sort out than expected. However the region web site stating that results were available at 3 and my entry not even being acknowledged were both particularly galling (how would you have felt?).
I should add that I have nothing but admiration for people who give up their spare time to organise such events but also think that the frustrations of those entering should be realised to improve on things in the future.
Why do I not offer to organise something for the region?
1 For some strange, probably historical, reason the meeting place for ' official' R18 activities is in the very south of a relatively large region - I live in the north of that same region and logistics mean that regular involvement is difficult (the North East region is a lot closer to me but PCGB decide on your region apparently on a postcode basis)
2 I am simply too busy at this current point in time (work commitments, young family all the usual excuses) to organise things properly - this relates back to the point made in my text which I am happy to reiterate - I have nothing but admiration for people who give up their spare time to organise such events
One other point - in a previous life I organised Exhibitions (perhaps this " earns me right to criticise how events are run" ) for a living and currently I lecture at a University. One thing was common to both - there is a reliance on feedback both good and bad to improve on what has gone on. I believe a forum such as this allows such feedback in an open manner (other entrants may have found everything ok). You will also note I posted this on the R18 site and not on a general discussion board (and this after receiving no reply to my e-mail)- this was because it was meant as feedback to the organisers not some form of ' point making' .
If you feel the language I have used was too strong then I apologise unreservedly - it did, however, fairly accurately reflect my mood after the event
Regards
Roy M
I checked the results twice before posting my initial response - as no response was forthcoming I assumed nothing had been changed. My reply to Helen simply related my experiences and frustrations at what had gone on. Personally I think it would have been wrong of me to interrupt a judge either whilst looking at a car or whilst considering marks so I did not do so. When I did ask for a timescale I was told 20 minutes (this was at about 3.10) and nothing had happened by 3.45 - I did not complain or make any fuss at this point but simply left (acknowledging the judges as I left) - it is not the judges fault that things had taken longer to sort out than expected. However the region web site stating that results were available at 3 and my entry not even being acknowledged were both particularly galling (how would you have felt?).
I should add that I have nothing but admiration for people who give up their spare time to organise such events but also think that the frustrations of those entering should be realised to improve on things in the future.
Why do I not offer to organise something for the region?
1 For some strange, probably historical, reason the meeting place for ' official' R18 activities is in the very south of a relatively large region - I live in the north of that same region and logistics mean that regular involvement is difficult (the North East region is a lot closer to me but PCGB decide on your region apparently on a postcode basis)
2 I am simply too busy at this current point in time (work commitments, young family all the usual excuses) to organise things properly - this relates back to the point made in my text which I am happy to reiterate - I have nothing but admiration for people who give up their spare time to organise such events
One other point - in a previous life I organised Exhibitions (perhaps this " earns me right to criticise how events are run" ) for a living and currently I lecture at a University. One thing was common to both - there is a reliance on feedback both good and bad to improve on what has gone on. I believe a forum such as this allows such feedback in an open manner (other entrants may have found everything ok). You will also note I posted this on the R18 site and not on a general discussion board (and this after receiving no reply to my e-mail)- this was because it was meant as feedback to the organisers not some form of ' point making' .
If you feel the language I have used was too strong then I apologise unreservedly - it did, however, fairly accurately reflect my mood after the event
Regards
Roy M
Guest
New member
Roy,
I' m sure many of us have felt the same way on many occassions and I don' t want to discuss it any further, however it' s very important to have a happy member of the Club so can I clarify the allocation of Region membership.
You can attend any Regions events you want and you can change which Region you want to be affiliated with by simply notifying Club Office. Obviously when you join the Club they have to put you somewhere and it is done by postcode, but that is not set in stone. You have identified the North East is better for you than Garstang, therefore can I suggest that if you want to consider yourself a North East member, just call Club ffice and let them know.
Regards
Lloyd Langley
I' m sure many of us have felt the same way on many occassions and I don' t want to discuss it any further, however it' s very important to have a happy member of the Club so can I clarify the allocation of Region membership.
You can attend any Regions events you want and you can change which Region you want to be affiliated with by simply notifying Club Office. Obviously when you join the Club they have to put you somewhere and it is done by postcode, but that is not set in stone. You have identified the North East is better for you than Garstang, therefore can I suggest that if you want to consider yourself a North East member, just call Club ffice and let them know.
Regards
Lloyd Langley
Guest
New member
It' s my first visit to this forum, and I have read the comments with great interest.
I would like to throw in a few observations of my own (take it as honest constructive comment):
I do feel a degree of sympathy with Roy. I too attended the R18 concours, and had travelled approx. 100 miles to do so through some pretty grubby weather...yes, my choice - but just adding a little context.
Like Roy - I received no response to my early application to the event. In contrast, last year, I received a written response, and clear judging criteria.
Yes - the R18 Events do center around the South of the Region. I support a large number of PCGB Events - both regional and Register, and across the country - but don' t expect to see me at monthly midweek meets (and yes, I' ve been before) - a 200 mile round trip after work for a pint and a chat, or a Bar meal for that matter is tiring and costly...can you blame me, or indeed others in the far reaches of the region.
The results were late, and I heard a LOT of attendees comment to that effect. There could have been more communication in that respect - I love nice cars and a good chat, but spending all day hanging around for results is rather tedious when there is little to do, especially when you have a long drive home.
Well, unlike Roy I waited...I wished I hadn' t quite frankly. The judging was inconsistent, and not appropriate to a street concours for the section I was in. Please allow me to expand - out of 20 marks total for wheels, I was awarded 5 - THEN, I was penalised by 10 points for ' non standard' wheels, and a further 5 for ' non-standard' valve caps...a grand total of minus 10!
If I took my wheels off and put it on bricks I would have scored higher. Did I have filthy boy racer rims with shoddy tyres? Nope...I have a 1991 964 with Porsche (not replica) 17" Cup 1 rims, and Michelins with correct N ratings. The wheels were spotless - not a hint of brake dust, kerbing or otherwise.
For heavens sake - I entered a ' street' concourse. On top of that the judging was inconsistent (yes, I' ve seen the marks - and I DO know what I' m talking about), and criteria inappropriate - for the street concours anyway. I would be inclined to agree with Ken' s idea of involving competitors in judging each others cars - it would give people more to do, and a sense of involvement too.
I' d better start pulling on my flameproof overalls now ;-) Seriously - hope nobody takes offence, these are just my personal feelings - and I wasn' t a happy bunny.
Cheers,
Mark
964 Register, Events Coordinator
I would like to throw in a few observations of my own (take it as honest constructive comment):
I do feel a degree of sympathy with Roy. I too attended the R18 concours, and had travelled approx. 100 miles to do so through some pretty grubby weather...yes, my choice - but just adding a little context.
Like Roy - I received no response to my early application to the event. In contrast, last year, I received a written response, and clear judging criteria.
Yes - the R18 Events do center around the South of the Region. I support a large number of PCGB Events - both regional and Register, and across the country - but don' t expect to see me at monthly midweek meets (and yes, I' ve been before) - a 200 mile round trip after work for a pint and a chat, or a Bar meal for that matter is tiring and costly...can you blame me, or indeed others in the far reaches of the region.
The results were late, and I heard a LOT of attendees comment to that effect. There could have been more communication in that respect - I love nice cars and a good chat, but spending all day hanging around for results is rather tedious when there is little to do, especially when you have a long drive home.
Well, unlike Roy I waited...I wished I hadn' t quite frankly. The judging was inconsistent, and not appropriate to a street concours for the section I was in. Please allow me to expand - out of 20 marks total for wheels, I was awarded 5 - THEN, I was penalised by 10 points for ' non standard' wheels, and a further 5 for ' non-standard' valve caps...a grand total of minus 10!
If I took my wheels off and put it on bricks I would have scored higher. Did I have filthy boy racer rims with shoddy tyres? Nope...I have a 1991 964 with Porsche (not replica) 17" Cup 1 rims, and Michelins with correct N ratings. The wheels were spotless - not a hint of brake dust, kerbing or otherwise.
For heavens sake - I entered a ' street' concourse. On top of that the judging was inconsistent (yes, I' ve seen the marks - and I DO know what I' m talking about), and criteria inappropriate - for the street concours anyway. I would be inclined to agree with Ken' s idea of involving competitors in judging each others cars - it would give people more to do, and a sense of involvement too.
I' d better start pulling on my flameproof overalls now ;-) Seriously - hope nobody takes offence, these are just my personal feelings - and I wasn' t a happy bunny.
Cheers,
Mark
964 Register, Events Coordinator
Guest
New member
Mark
As you will probably guess I know exactly where you' re coming from.
I' ve not seen the marks for my car and I know that my polished 7 and 8 fuchs will have lost me points which I could have gained if I' d put my spare 6' s and 7' s on (standard) but I like it the way I presented it. Your case, however, sounds a bit OTT.
Unfortunately I can see no way round this unless criteria for marking are agreed long in advance and those of us who can' t or won' t change our cars to match the criteria just don' t bother entering.
Cheers
Roy
As you will probably guess I know exactly where you' re coming from.
I' ve not seen the marks for my car and I know that my polished 7 and 8 fuchs will have lost me points which I could have gained if I' d put my spare 6' s and 7' s on (standard) but I like it the way I presented it. Your case, however, sounds a bit OTT.
Unfortunately I can see no way round this unless criteria for marking are agreed long in advance and those of us who can' t or won' t change our cars to match the criteria just don' t bother entering.
Cheers
Roy
I arrived at the golf club at 740 am to set up. we were moved to a new location, it rained for the first 2/3 hours, the equipment was short of poles, club shop didnt arrive as promised, the day was delayed by approx 3 hours. I was very flexible about cleaning due to the rain, The judging was carried out on all classes apart from master class by a very well respected judge or judges in Phill Clarke and John Ketchall whom have personally won more events then most people have entered, The judging was based on how your model of car was made NOT how you make it, did it have a red fan when it was made NO, did it have wrong wheels YES, was it made with grease under the wheel arches
[:-] NO, Shall I go on NO this is the end of the matter, if your cars were perfect then they would have won. Now think about the car owner, whos car is perfect they dont moan and winge, so the answer is make it perfect or stop moaning the decession is yours. END OF DEBATE BARRY SMITH
[:-] NO, Shall I go on NO this is the end of the matter, if your cars were perfect then they would have won. Now think about the car owner, whos car is perfect they dont moan and winge, so the answer is make it perfect or stop moaning the decession is yours. END OF DEBATE BARRY SMITH
Guest
New member
This looks like a very heated discussion, especially when this (concours event) is meant to be enjoyable for all concerned (else, why do it?). OK, people like to win, but having a good time is probably more important. Having experienced judges is also a good thing, but if there is no (or little) communication with the entrants, and some leave agrieved, then all the experience in the world doesn' t make up for it. This is not to put the blame on anyone, but I can' t believe that the problems are ALL down to the entrants, as seems to be implied (or, at least, inferred).
I will never enter a concours event, partly because my car is non-standard, and mostly because it is meant to be driven (it' s only a car, when all is said and done !), not pampered too much. I thought I would say this, to indicate that I have no axe to grind in this matter.
I will never enter a concours event, partly because my car is non-standard, and mostly because it is meant to be driven (it' s only a car, when all is said and done !), not pampered too much. I thought I would say this, to indicate that I have no axe to grind in this matter.
Guest
New member
I don't concede that this is the end of the debate, but merely a beginning.
The question we need to ask ourselves; what is the purpose of a Regional Concours?
Is it the big Annual Regional Event, with the emphasis put on an enjoyable day out for all the Region's Club members? Or is it a day where only members with cars "The way they were made" can enter?
Why not have an event which covers both aspects, "Professional" judging to select; a true from the factory car, to represent the Region at the National Concours.
Also as there happens to be lots of cars in the PCGB that don't match up this sanitized criteria, Why not let the members have participation on the day to "judge" entries of cars; "The way the Owner made it"
As the Club tries to cater for all Porsche Enthusiasts, Nuts or whatever you want to call them (us) surely this should also be apparent at the Regional Concours.
Barry, these comments are not directed at you or Region 18, but made as part of a debate on Regional Concours in general. I personally believe that the more people who can be encouraged to enter a Concours. The higher the standard of car maintenance that is achieved.
Guest
New member
I' ve got to agree with Ken about this being the start of the debate rather than Barry deciding this is the end! If you re-analyse my posts I have raised no questions regarding my judging at all - my car is not standard but it is the way I like it (incidentally I have no grease under my wheelarches - they are body colour red as they should be, although I do admit my oil pipes are black not cadmium!). Personally I have no quibbles about the judging at all (I haven' t seen the sheets) but do believe that people should be informed about what they are letting themselves in for (and I think Marks case sounds extreme)
My quibbles are about the organisation, no information being made available and my results being ' lost' . To add insult to injury I asked for my second place medal (or whatever) to be forwarded to me and got only an entrants medal without a note - maybe I' ve upset somebody!
There appears to be no consistent approach from the club regarding concours organisation and judging. If there is a desire to appear professional then I believe this is a natural move forward.
Lastly - lets all lighten up - this was supposed to be a fun event. My car has well over 100000 miles on the clock and is used hard and regularly but very well maintained. If that' s not good enough for the Porsche club and they want me to find a low mileage car to keep in the garage and bring out for the concours every year then we will never agree!
Roy
My quibbles are about the organisation, no information being made available and my results being ' lost' . To add insult to injury I asked for my second place medal (or whatever) to be forwarded to me and got only an entrants medal without a note - maybe I' ve upset somebody!
There appears to be no consistent approach from the club regarding concours organisation and judging. If there is a desire to appear professional then I believe this is a natural move forward.
Lastly - lets all lighten up - this was supposed to be a fun event. My car has well over 100000 miles on the clock and is used hard and regularly but very well maintained. If that' s not good enough for the Porsche club and they want me to find a low mileage car to keep in the garage and bring out for the concours every year then we will never agree!
Roy
Guest
New member
...and I never knew that concours could be so exciting.
Barry - I disagree the spirit of your email message. I firmly believe that if one were to publicise a Regional Concours with a Street section as being only for ' Perfect' entirely original (dare I say it...rarely driven?) cars, you wouldn' t attract many entrants...try it if you don' t believe me ;-)
Personally, I don' t normally attend concours - I have no ambition to win events, but see it as a bit of fun to enter a street concours, make an effort to present the car smartly, support a Regional event, and meet new interesting people. I know that there are a lot of people who view things similarly...we are entitled to our points of view with respect to what we think concours is about at this level (I' m not talking about ' Master Class' ...this is for owners who virtually own their cars solely for the purpose of concours - nothing wrong with that if that' s what you want, but it' s a different game entirely, and it doesn' t apply to the vast majority of PCGB members).
I think Ken has the right attitude - concours events are great for encouraging people to bring their cars up to a very good standard - whether the cars are ' original' in the eyes judges or not. Everyone should be welcomed...being a member of PCGB is about ' including' people, not ' excluding/alienating' people who have cars that don' t fit an idealistic ' concours d' elegance' mould.
David - don' t be put off organising another concours just because of this debate. I respect anyone who takes the time to organise events. OK, a few of us have had a debate that has raised a few points (some contraversial?), but Club Members have a right to air their views freely whether popular or not. The Club consists of over 10,000 people with greatly differing cars, views, and levels of participation - at least all of us here have spent the time to share what we think because we care - even if there is disagreement.
...as Michael Winner would say:
" ...Calm down dear, it' s just a Concours" ;-)
Mark.
Barry - I disagree the spirit of your email message. I firmly believe that if one were to publicise a Regional Concours with a Street section as being only for ' Perfect' entirely original (dare I say it...rarely driven?) cars, you wouldn' t attract many entrants...try it if you don' t believe me ;-)
Personally, I don' t normally attend concours - I have no ambition to win events, but see it as a bit of fun to enter a street concours, make an effort to present the car smartly, support a Regional event, and meet new interesting people. I know that there are a lot of people who view things similarly...we are entitled to our points of view with respect to what we think concours is about at this level (I' m not talking about ' Master Class' ...this is for owners who virtually own their cars solely for the purpose of concours - nothing wrong with that if that' s what you want, but it' s a different game entirely, and it doesn' t apply to the vast majority of PCGB members).
I think Ken has the right attitude - concours events are great for encouraging people to bring their cars up to a very good standard - whether the cars are ' original' in the eyes judges or not. Everyone should be welcomed...being a member of PCGB is about ' including' people, not ' excluding/alienating' people who have cars that don' t fit an idealistic ' concours d' elegance' mould.
David - don' t be put off organising another concours just because of this debate. I respect anyone who takes the time to organise events. OK, a few of us have had a debate that has raised a few points (some contraversial?), but Club Members have a right to air their views freely whether popular or not. The Club consists of over 10,000 people with greatly differing cars, views, and levels of participation - at least all of us here have spent the time to share what we think because we care - even if there is disagreement.
...as Michael Winner would say:
" ...Calm down dear, it' s just a Concours" ;-)
Mark.
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