I love the new GT3, but at £135,000 and £2000 VED, that's very, very poor value imo.
My 718 CS VED is £220, and provides me with all the fun I need.
Brian
My 718 CS VED is £220, and provides me with all the fun I need.
Brian
Cayman GT4: Where are we up 2 now? Déjà vu Edition
- Thread starter ralphmusic
- Start date
Brian,
Your £220 is annual for pre-April 2017 registered cars, the £2,000 is the post April-2017 first year tax rate for cars with emissions greater than 255g/km. The first year tax now for a Cayman S is £500 and then £450pa. The GT3 with its higher emissions is also £450pa.
Your £220 is annual for pre-April 2017 registered cars, the £2,000 is the post April-2017 first year tax rate for cars with emissions greater than 255g/km. The first year tax now for a Cayman S is £500 and then £450pa. The GT3 with its higher emissions is also £450pa.
CarreraGTS
New member
I have a Golf Gti Clubsport S as well as a GT4 - so have both forced and Na - Front and rear wheel drive ... the Clubsport S makes more noise than my GT4 on over run and up shift, so having forced induction doesn't necessarily mean poor noise levels ... sure on tick over it sounds much the same as any Turbo 4 pot but the benefit of Torque versus Bhp can be found on a twisty North Yorkshire B road ... The CSS is as quick as any car your likely to put it up against and for Costs £120 to Tax and £220 to insure and £100 to service .. it does 38 Mpg in Comfort but hit the Nurburgring Setting and its as quick from 20 to 90 Mph as an RS3 ... I would say its probably the best all round sports car in the World and I'm sure any GT4 Track Day users have been surprised at its Track day speed and with only 400 World wide is virtually depreciation free and a guaranteed never to be repeated "Future Classic" .... So having a 4 Pot Turbo is definitely not the end of the World ?!!!
CarreraGTS
New member
I have a Golf Gti Clubsport S as well as a GT4 - so have both forced and Na - Front and rear wheel drive ... the Clubsport S makes more noise than my GT4 on over run and up shift, so having forced induction doesn't necessarily mean poor noise levels ... sure on tick over it sounds much the same as any Turbo 4 pot but the benefit of Torque versus Bhp can be found on a twisty North Yorkshire B road ... The CSS is as quick as any car your likely to put it up against and for Costs £120 to Tax and £220 to insure and £100 to service .. it does 38 Mpg in Comfort but hit the Nurburgring Setting and its as quick from 20 to 90 Mph as an RS3 ... I would say its probably the best all round sports car in the World and I'm sure any GT4 Track Day users have been surprised at its Track day speed and with only 400 World wide is virtually depreciation free and a guaranteed never to be repeated "Future Classic" .... So having a 4 Pot Turbo is definitely not the end of the World ?!!!
I also have a Golf Clubsport , while is it a great car, it is only a £30k golf 4 pot and not a car I drive at the week ends.
saying that I would rather have one than spend £70k on a Porsche 4 pot, and use the change to buy an Elise.
It's amazing how good the Golf is over a GTi though, I had a Gti on loan and it felt a bit Pants, the CS is def the R of Golf land.
but yes my 1st service was £133
to go back to this line
"the Clubsport S makes more noise than my GT4 on over run"
that's not a good thing lol I hate over run, the GT4 gave an honest sound, this trend for over run to try and make 4 pots exciting is dire.
Great daily though, good lights, heated buckets, what's not to like.
it not RS3 fast or TTRS fast mind you, I just sourced a TTRS for my mate and it leaves me for dead, it's a 3 second 60 mph car and does the ton in 8 !
saying that I would rather have one than spend £70k on a Porsche 4 pot, and use the change to buy an Elise.
It's amazing how good the Golf is over a GTi though, I had a Gti on loan and it felt a bit Pants, the CS is def the R of Golf land.
but yes my 1st service was £133
to go back to this line
"the Clubsport S makes more noise than my GT4 on over run"
that's not a good thing lol I hate over run, the GT4 gave an honest sound, this trend for over run to try and make 4 pots exciting is dire.
Great daily though, good lights, heated buckets, what's not to like.
it not RS3 fast or TTRS fast mind you, I just sourced a TTRS for my mate and it leaves me for dead, it's a 3 second 60 mph car and does the ton in 8 !
CarreraGTS
New member
David.
I was comparing to old RS3 not 2017 RS3 when Evo did a Test ... The Clubsport S is obviously a different car to the normal Clubsport Ed40 ... Lighter, better brakes, better discs, better suspension, different Map, better Aero etc etc ... its like comparing Gt cars to RS ... different kettle of fish and designed with a different job in mind... The normal Ed40 is a great car and arguably a better daily driver though, having back seats LoL
I was comparing to old RS3 not 2017 RS3 when Evo did a Test ... The Clubsport S is obviously a different car to the normal Clubsport Ed40 ... Lighter, better brakes, better discs, better suspension, different Map, better Aero etc etc ... its like comparing Gt cars to RS ... different kettle of fish and designed with a different job in mind... The normal Ed40 is a great car and arguably a better daily driver though, having back seats LoL
it's the same car ;-) it's no lighter that any one will notice, just has no rear seats that's it, the map is the same they just had to state over boost instead off full power 100% of the time, the aero is the same, the sus is the same, brakes are really the same. in fact it's the same car. and as it's vag every one maps to 360 bhp anyway... on a JB4 or a hard tune.
I have also turned off the torque limiter in vagcom and upped my diff setting to S spec , I get full power in every gear at any revs now.
Plus to make mine pure I have a 3 door bucket seat manual
it had 7 changes the car is ni on the same (I have the full partslist for both cars), with the same aero, spring rates, diff, calipers, etc etc.
the S has
rear seat delete, and no the brace is not a brace bar in the S, just cosmetic.
alloy front sub frame
milled front hubs to gain -0.5 extra front camber
Audi TT wheel bearings I guess to take extra load.
those 2 piece disks which are not really 2 piece. but are very cheap to buy and look nicer.
different back box which farts a lot ;-)
slightly stiffer rear ARB.
all bolt on's for the Clubsport with the only real thing worth buying is the milled front hubs at £225 each , you have to buy the TT wheel bearings and you might as well fit the rear ARB.
the rest is software whichI have already done, in fact I prob get more torue in 2nd gear than the S as I have the limited fully off and use my right foot to limit spin.
I also have engine mounts and a short shift, (do both to the S it is again a big change esp the engine mounts, but I love my super short throw booma racing part)
As I said the CS is like a new car over a GTi I was shocked how a normal GTi was , the sus set up the aero (ie no lift) the S is just that bit more tweaked but I did need the 4 seats, I love the car but will fit the hubs and wheel bearings, I also run the new PS4S tyres on it.
yes the S is the better car for sure out the box but's it's not RS better over GT so to speak. it's the same car with things turned off in the software and those few tweaks which are cheap to buy/fit.
but yes class leading imo and fun.
I have also turned off the torque limiter in vagcom and upped my diff setting to S spec , I get full power in every gear at any revs now.
Plus to make mine pure I have a 3 door bucket seat manual
it had 7 changes the car is ni on the same (I have the full partslist for both cars), with the same aero, spring rates, diff, calipers, etc etc.
the S has
rear seat delete, and no the brace is not a brace bar in the S, just cosmetic.
alloy front sub frame
milled front hubs to gain -0.5 extra front camber
Audi TT wheel bearings I guess to take extra load.
those 2 piece disks which are not really 2 piece. but are very cheap to buy and look nicer.
different back box which farts a lot ;-)
slightly stiffer rear ARB.
all bolt on's for the Clubsport with the only real thing worth buying is the milled front hubs at £225 each , you have to buy the TT wheel bearings and you might as well fit the rear ARB.
the rest is software whichI have already done, in fact I prob get more torue in 2nd gear than the S as I have the limited fully off and use my right foot to limit spin.
I also have engine mounts and a short shift, (do both to the S it is again a big change esp the engine mounts, but I love my super short throw booma racing part)
As I said the CS is like a new car over a GTi I was shocked how a normal GTi was , the sus set up the aero (ie no lift) the S is just that bit more tweaked but I did need the 4 seats, I love the car but will fit the hubs and wheel bearings, I also run the new PS4S tyres on it.
yes the S is the better car for sure out the box but's it's not RS better over GT so to speak. it's the same car with things turned off in the software and those few tweaks which are cheap to buy/fit.
but yes class leading imo and fun.
Erm....all very interesting chaps - especially since I rumble around in a 10-year old Mk5 GTi - but I'm not quite sure what relevance this has to the subject title..!
Presumably that's what happens when there's a lack of activity on the subject matter, but while I'm here I wonder what impact the upcoming car will have on used GT4 prices, given that the new car could retail around £75K or more? I for one wouldn't be prepared to pay the inflated prices being asked currently for used examples.
Jeff
Presumably that's what happens when there's a lack of activity on the subject matter, but while I'm here I wonder what impact the upcoming car will have on used GT4 prices, given that the new car could retail around £75K or more? I for one wouldn't be prepared to pay the inflated prices being asked currently for used examples.
Jeff
CarreraGTS
New member
Hi David
Fyi - Heres a Youtube Link that shows the difference between the Two cars ... Both great, but love the Clubsport S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox9TcHdnYsA
Andrew
Fyi - Heres a Youtube Link that shows the difference between the Two cars ... Both great, but love the Clubsport S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox9TcHdnYsA
Andrew
Motorhead said:
Last car was £65k plus options, making it a £70-75k car. So they're currently commanding £10-15k over list.
New car is likely to be £75k plus options, making it an £80-85k car. I can see it around £100k for the flippers then sitting in the £90k bracket.
The 981 prices will soften further towards list IMHO, but they're not going to drop through the floor.
my cars for sale at only £6k overs, a low miles mint example with a fresh service and new 2 years warranty saving the new owner £1.7k over a 2nd hand one, so more like £4k overs, less as it has ppf film and graphics on it also.
talks of 10k and 15k are long gone.
My cars a steel if you want a 1 owner OPC car, it's not SOR so I have no interest in the car.
talks of 10k and 15k are long gone.
My cars a steel if you want a 1 owner OPC car, it's not SOR so I have no interest in the car.
CarreraGTS said:Hi David
Fyi - Heres a Youtube Link that shows the difference between the Two cars ... Both great, but love the Clubsport S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox9TcHdnYsA
Andrew
so nothing I have not said, maybe you got confused with his GTi reference at the start of his vid and throughout . the cars are the same bar the parts I stated
https://youtu.be/0Wfr6Ge_XHE
the club sport
So away from the second hand sales and volks' car posts....
In truth nobody outside Porsche knows what or whether a new GT4 might be, but all the pronouncements from Porsche strongly suggest a NA six cylinder engine.
If one looks at the cooking 991.1 and GT3 3.8 crankcases, they are virtually the same except for GT3 specific machining. The same could also be true of the 991.2 GT3 4.0 in reverse i.e. same basic crankcase with cooking internals, particularly valve train, hence all the stories about a "detuned" GT3 4.0 engine which based on the 4.0 GT3 will turn out to be a stroked 3.8. Cylinder gaps are the limiting factor in using the existing 3.8 castings.
I still believe the info I was given in Germany in April which said 4.0 version of 981.1 GT4 engine, with gearbox a marketing decision.
I still hear stories about the turbo 4 in a GT4, but of course none of the completely incidental spy spotters seem to have a microphone. That engine would make sense to the Clubsport Rennwagen because of the torque which really helps on track.
Some have suggested maybe no Gen2 GT4 but a turbo engined Cayman "R". This might make sense to reinforce the move to T4 for the 982 platform but it provides no homologation base for a Rennwagen.
So I think 4.0 version of current 3.8 is most likely providing lowest development, qualification and certification costs.
Aside from engine what else might change? my guess is aero detail, styling tweeks to differentiate, 982 ICE but possibly not much more. There seem to have been big improvements in tyres in the last few years and perhaps this together with better torque and 15hp extra will be the main performance improvers.
In truth nobody outside Porsche knows what or whether a new GT4 might be, but all the pronouncements from Porsche strongly suggest a NA six cylinder engine.
If one looks at the cooking 991.1 and GT3 3.8 crankcases, they are virtually the same except for GT3 specific machining. The same could also be true of the 991.2 GT3 4.0 in reverse i.e. same basic crankcase with cooking internals, particularly valve train, hence all the stories about a "detuned" GT3 4.0 engine which based on the 4.0 GT3 will turn out to be a stroked 3.8. Cylinder gaps are the limiting factor in using the existing 3.8 castings.
I still believe the info I was given in Germany in April which said 4.0 version of 981.1 GT4 engine, with gearbox a marketing decision.
I still hear stories about the turbo 4 in a GT4, but of course none of the completely incidental spy spotters seem to have a microphone. That engine would make sense to the Clubsport Rennwagen because of the torque which really helps on track.
Some have suggested maybe no Gen2 GT4 but a turbo engined Cayman "R". This might make sense to reinforce the move to T4 for the 982 platform but it provides no homologation base for a Rennwagen.
So I think 4.0 version of current 3.8 is most likely providing lowest development, qualification and certification costs.
Aside from engine what else might change? my guess is aero detail, styling tweeks to differentiate, 982 ICE but possibly not much more. There seem to have been big improvements in tyres in the last few years and perhaps this together with better torque and 15hp extra will be the main performance improvers.
Can't disagree with any of that Ralph - what we've been saying on here for some time, despite some posters on PH salivating about a "detuned" GT3 engine:
Stiffened crankshaft, titanium conrods, forged pistons, finger-operated valves, Variocam on inlet and exhaust camshafts, dry sump system.....
Much as I'd like to believe it, somehow I don't think so. I do, however, think it likely that we'll see a PDK option this time round, but as for bespoke ratios for the manual transmission; again unlikely I would have thought owing to cost considerations - but we continue to live in hope..!
Jeff
Stiffened crankshaft, titanium conrods, forged pistons, finger-operated valves, Variocam on inlet and exhaust camshafts, dry sump system.....
Much as I'd like to believe it, somehow I don't think so. I do, however, think it likely that we'll see a PDK option this time round, but as for bespoke ratios for the manual transmission; again unlikely I would have thought owing to cost considerations - but we continue to live in hope..!
Jeff
Jeff,
Pinned to my computer researching VIN numbers and brake master cylinders as I am.. saw your post above.
I hesitated at mentioning gearboxes, it's a bit like actors saying the name of the Scottish play, but I think it is more likely to stay manual only, target market ethos and all that. It is not logical as Dr Spock would say for a so called track oriented car but neither is the limited suspension adjustment. The USA is the prime "four on the floor market" and PCNA don't deny warranty claims for modifications so we sit here with less choice all round. Maybe they will even get round fixing the gearbox weakness...
Maybe they will change their minds on spring rates and stiffen the fronts which at 50N/mm are so much softer than the rears (80N/mm) that they don't even need helper /tender springs. The X73 available on non-GT 981 has 30 and 47; the ratio front/rear GT4 is 1:1.78 v 1:1:57. They seem to have taken the GT3 spring rates and used them on the GT4.
Ralph
Pinned to my computer researching VIN numbers and brake master cylinders as I am.. saw your post above.
I hesitated at mentioning gearboxes, it's a bit like actors saying the name of the Scottish play, but I think it is more likely to stay manual only, target market ethos and all that. It is not logical as Dr Spock would say for a so called track oriented car but neither is the limited suspension adjustment. The USA is the prime "four on the floor market" and PCNA don't deny warranty claims for modifications so we sit here with less choice all round. Maybe they will even get round fixing the gearbox weakness...
Maybe they will change their minds on spring rates and stiffen the fronts which at 50N/mm are so much softer than the rears (80N/mm) that they don't even need helper /tender springs. The X73 available on non-GT 981 has 30 and 47; the ratio front/rear GT4 is 1:1.78 v 1:1:57. They seem to have taken the GT3 spring rates and used them on the GT4.
Ralph
Jeff and Ralph,
Fascinating stuff!
Meantime, I'm a very interested Cayman devotee and track day fan, as you will already know. I'm watching and waiting while all this pans out.
From my standpoint, I know what I'd like to see, but I'm keeping my own counsel on that for now.
Brian
Fascinating stuff!
Meantime, I'm a very interested Cayman devotee and track day fan, as you will already know. I'm watching and waiting while all this pans out.
From my standpoint, I know what I'd like to see, but I'm keeping my own counsel on that for now.
Brian
The issue is, after a 8 year break in a drivers GT3 it,s back in spades.
And only the 3rd car in GT3 history to have a short ratio box.
but at a cost of course, any one thinking they will put an engine from a £120k car in a £70k car might be disappointed.
i cannot see a GT4 in 2018, but who knows.
And only the 3rd car in GT3 history to have a short ratio box.
but at a cost of course, any one thinking they will put an engine from a £120k car in a £70k car might be disappointed.
i cannot see a GT4 in 2018, but who knows.
ralphmusic said:
Ralph,
Target market ethos or not, I would have thought that having PDK as an option would be relatively straightforward - all depending upon development time being available - and the group's had experience with the GT4 Clubsport to support that activity. I suspect that there are a significant number of people, yourself included, either who require or who prefer a semi-auto 'box.
On the spring rate issue, are they helper or tender springs on the rear? Although I supect that they're helper springs (to reduce the main spring mass?), if they're tender springs then the effective static spring rate will be less than 80N/mm since there are two springs in series - inverse of {(1/K1) + (1/K2)}.
Jeff
Jeff,
Helper or tender? I guess the question is whether they are fully compressed at normal static load?
The only images I have are of a GT4 with wheels off on a jack from this thread but the secondary spring looks more helper than tender.
Whereas the Clubsport springs (marked 140 and 80) pictured at end of thread look like they are main with tenders.
Ralph
Helper or tender? I guess the question is whether they are fully compressed at normal static load?
The only images I have are of a GT4 with wheels off on a jack from this thread but the secondary spring looks more helper than tender.
Whereas the Clubsport springs (marked 140 and 80) pictured at end of thread look like they are main with tenders.
Ralph
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