Cars being clocked

[robbosliding]

Has anyone come across or heard rumours about an under hand practice of altering the mileage on the clocks on porsche cars. I have a vague knowledge that a DMI reading will reveal a true mileage of a car that can't be wound back but I have learnt of a few things in the last few days that would suggest there is a wider spread problem of professional clocking of prestige cars (predominantly newer cars, 3-4 years) old being "wound" back. I'd be interested if anyone could post on this subject.

 

[jonc4s]

I know of this happening.

A £250 drink normally results in the mileage being taken off, it's too easy really.

No names and never done it but it scares me when buying...

 

[pauljmcnulty]

It's actually easier to clock a modern car. Simple bit of kit on a laptop and you're done, no nasty unscrewing things and winding delicate numbers back. [&o]

Porsches will always be a target, they wear the miles so well. It's still very unlikely that a car with an obviously good history, and a seller you feel comfortable with, will have been through any tampering. It's the same with anything, the too-good-to-be-true usually is.

 

[robbosliding]

Hmmm. Priced to good to be true is one indictor. But a car presented with less miles than it should have will command a better price if its passed off as genuine. With the top end range of cars this is thousands of pounds. Had a bit of an eye opener today. Will tread a bit more carefully in future.

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

Try this <Link>

On all 996s, the total operating hours are recorded in the engine ECU (DME). This can be read with a Porsche tester, and can be compared to the odometer reading. As a rule of thumb, reckon on an average speed of 30mph for most cars - perhaps a bit less for a city car.

On facelift 996s the total distance in Km is also recorded in the DME. This is usually a few percent less than the odometer reading, as the odometer over-reads, but gives an excellent guide to authenticating the true mileage. My feeling is that it is probably more difficult to 'clock' the DME - both the operating hours record, and the total distance record. I have seen a car which was clocked on the odometer, but with the true mileage and operating hours still recorded in the DME.

The Durametric tester will show operating hours, but not the total distance. Therefore make sure your PPI provider has a Porsche PST2 or PIWIS tester. The car I mentioned above was tested with a Durametric.......... And it also passed through an OPC unnoticed.

 

[richard hall]

Doh!!! would help if i could post properly

Hi Robb

from your previous post re sourcing turbos

it is common it does happen it is cheap to do as Richard says and i reiterate get the car piwis tested
on the note with regard to the dme the ecu clocks the km travelled, porsche also have the facility to download all the dme information which is over the lifetime of the car they can check other parameters as well, ie airbag activations etc from this they can truly tell if the dme is telling the true story as far as i know the dme cannot be altered if it can Porsche aint saying.Their line is the DME is a true representation of the mileage of the vehicle. give or take a few precent as Richard says
I would add the guys doing this aint stupid and stand to gain a few quid. it is not always obvious that the car has been altered unless you look and quite a few will not offer the vehicle up at prices to good to be true.service books can be altered or bought and we all know Porsches in the main wear well and can hide their miles and i would also add the car's mileage could easily have been alterd by a previous owner and the new one who is selling just unsuspecting punter.I also know of a car that has been through an opc as a used approved where a discrepancy was subsequently found somewhat later down the chain! You have been warned!


[blockquote]
ORIGINAL: richard hall

edited private message to rob
Hi Rob DME stands for Digital Motor Electronics In essence this is the ECU which is made by Bosch for Porsche A little known fact it would seem over here is that the ecu can be interrogated by the piwis testing system(Porsche's system) In the states they do it all the time If you go to Porsche They can interrogate your car for you it is called a working log Most people are aware that the ecu can record over revs In particular rev range 1 and rev range 2 Although and Richard Hamilton can confirm this with the latest 997 if think the now have 6 rev bands The purpose of this is clear originally rev range 1 was caught if you went to the rev limiter going up Rev range 2 was caught usually on a down shift and the engine was over revved i.e. you change from 6th to 1st at 70 mph this is considered more dangerous the reading you are given shows the number of engine ignitions and the hour at which this last occurred the engine ignitions I think have to be divided by 3 to give the number of seconds that this has occurred for on my working log I had 9905 ignitions in rev 1 last at 1002.2 hours of operation for rev 2 I had 2 ignitions at 900.7 hours there is also lots of other information on the working log engine number chassis number transmission number Vin number BUT the most important fact is the ECU logs the mileage the car has travelled this is considered by Porsche to be 100% accurate and inviolate I have become more of an 'expert' on this with my recent experience purchasing my car There are quite a few cars out there that have been adjusted I know that porche reading are well aware of this and it is always checked when they px a car Certain company's like 911 virgin and RSJ also have the piwis tester and as a matter of course check this on the cars before they go out and get sold
the durametric will tell you rev 1 and 2 but not the mileage which is really the critical bitor not as the case maybe
some people seem fairly relaxed about discrepancy as they suggest the cars are built to do many thousands of milesand in reality a few thousand probably means little bar servicing records

I would suggest there is a large emotional component to a car purchase for most of usand not an inconsiderable amount of money as well

Finding a discrepancy is akin to someone rubbing dog turd into your brand new expensive persian rug
That is why i would always recommend a dme readout for any modern porsche purchased even a secondhand one from an OPC
This feature is not available to 993's and back(and in this age of car the mileage is much less of an issue,as car condition etc comes into the equation)

Richard will be able to tell what year the ability to check mileage happened

certainly all 997 and later 996 i am just not sure abbout the earlier 996
Happy Hunting




[/blockquote]

 

[Trackrod996]

Although clocking is easily done on a mdern car, forging the history, which we all now insist on, is a lot more difficult. That's one of the reasons why it's always good to have a large file of receipts etc with any car you're interested in, and more inportant, check them all.

 

[bobsprats]

ORIGINAL: Trackrod996

Although clocking is easily done on a mdern car, forging the history, which we all now insist on, is a lot more difficult. That's one of the reasons why it's always good to have a large file of receipts etc with any car you're interested in, and more inportant, check them all.

This it too true.

I would always look for a pile of invoices, receipts, Old MOT certificates. You will find a lot of these documents will have the mileage recorded on them a various times of the cars life.

A few minutes spent cross checking these against each other and the service book will give a clue if things are not right.
Most owners, especially enthusiasts appreciate the importance of keeping these documents nowadays, so if they are not there with the car, I always start to wonder why.

I know of a dealer who never passes on the previous paperwork, they just sell the car with the Service book and current MOT, and throw the rest in the bin. I found this out while trying to trace the history of a car. The guy told me on the phone that "˜keeping the paperwork was more trouble than its worth, you never know what's lurking in there'. Make of that what you like, personally, that would be enough for me to walk away from a deal on a car of any value.

In comparison, 18 months ago I purchased a 1983 911 3.2 for a project build. It has 12 previous owners, 150k on the clock, but came with every MOT, a fully stamped service history, and every old invoice since 1986.

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

Even OPCs don't pass on paperwork.

 

[Diesel130]

If you have an OPC 111 point check done (as I did on mine) they read the engine hours. Mine was at 1604hours for a mileage of 46,800 ish, which, as Richard said is about right (just over 30mph average).

If you can get all the receipts and MOTs you can compare mileages on all the docs to make sure everything is consistent.

 

[Porker993]

ORIGINAL: Richard Hamilton

Even OPCs don't pass on paperwork.

That is certainly true. Porsche have been no help whatsoever on tracing the service history of any of my four 911s. They usually quote "data protection rules" which stop them revealing anything about a car's former life. That applies to Porsche GB, as well as Porsche AG.

So the moral of the story is everyone should keep paper records (as we all do) and be very careful to pass them on with the car. That way you can verify mileage.

 

[jukn]

I did pass on my paperwork with the car to an OPC and was told it would probably all be binned!

So i guess the only way is to keep the paperwork and hope the new buyer gets in touch via the previous owner record on the reg doc.

 

[Spy]

ORIGINAL: Porker993

ORIGINAL: Richard Hamilton

Even OPCs don't pass on paperwork.

That is certainly true. Porsche have been no help whatsoever on tracing the service history of any of my four 911s. They usually quote "data protection rules" which stop them revealing anything about a car's former life. That applies to Porsche GB, as well as Porsche AG.

So the moral of the story is everyone should keep paper records (as we all do) and be very careful to pass them on with the car. That way you can verify mileage.

I think that Porsche want to protect the reputation of their cars rather than dp RULES.

BMW offer a great service where they provide the original spec of the car and every service date and mileage and dealer it has visited. They will; then give you teh phone numbers of teh dealers where you can phone them up and ask the types of service it had or any warranty work.

It really helps you find a good'un