Can our cars compete with a modern day Supercar???

[333pg333]

GT2RS on slicks no less....

My friend Sean Buchanan in his 1986 944 turbo with a 3L turbocharged 16v S2 motor. Moton Clubsports and Hoosier slicks. Sean drives his car daily to work (where he put the car together). It has full leather upholstery, sound system, all original steel panels, glass etc. I think the car weighs in around 1400kgs. Pretty good effort from car and driver I say!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB-sE9v6ef4&list=UL

 

[Copperman05]

Good video Patrick, thanks for posting. It really doesnt surprise me given how good the 944 chassis is, although you might wonder how committed the GT2 driver might be in his £130,000 pride and joy compared to a £8,000 944, still impressive though. Reminds me of my recent trip to Silverstone when I was passing more modern machinery such as a E46 M3 (not Andy Watson I might add, who had the legs on me[]), Subaru Impreza, BMW Z4 3.0i and Porsche 996, and that's without a turbo! Ok it was a novice type event but goes to show its not really what you drive but how you drive it (and how well it goes round corners), anyone can go fast in a straight line.... KW also makes all the difference imo.


Edd

 

[PSH]

In answer to your question Patrick ...YES!, in regards to the video, nice driving. The car didn't look like it was anywhere near it's limit, fast smooth driving, also it was noticeable that once he had passed the..err.. slower car.. he was a lot faster through the bends and more able to hold a greater speed through said bends, now that he wasn't being hindered. Nice video...

Pete

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05
Reminds me of my recent trip to Silverstone when I was passing more modern machinery such as a E46 M3 (not Andy Watson I might add, who had the legs on me[]), Subaru Impreza, BMW Z4 3.0i and Porsche 996, and that's without a turbo!

Yeah, that's why you were quicker Edd.

Just sayin' ... []


Oli.

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

ORIGINAL: Copperman05
Reminds me of my recent trip to Silverstone when I was passing more modern machinery such as a E46 M3 (not Andy Watson I might add, who had the legs on me[]), Subaru Impreza, BMW Z4 3.0i and Porsche 996, and that's without a turbo!

Yeah, that's why you were quicker Edd.

Just sayin' ... []


Oli.

Be fair now Oli, if he had had a turbo he wouldn't just pass them, he would have lapped them too...

Pete

 

[MarkK]

Err...now you know i am a huge lifelong 944 fan,but sorry a modern GT porsche will drive around even a modified turbo fairly easy if its driven properly,its not a fair comparison.If the GT2 was on slicks he should be gone plain and simple.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Err...now you know i am a huge lifelong 944 fan,but sorry a modern GT porsche will drive around even a modified turbo fairly easy if its driven properly,its not a fair comparison.If the GT2 was on slicks he should be gone plain and simple.

I agree with this 100% even though I never used to, simple fact is that it is very rare to see these cars driven to their capability whereas amongst the 944 crowd we have a long history of nuttyness. I had no problem keeping up with a 7RS round donny the other year but was lapping somewhere in the mid 20's which to me wasn't quick enough but is of course more than fast enough on track days. I reckon that driven properly that 7RS would have easily gone another 10 seconds faster. Even a base model 996 is ridiculously fast, everyone has been stunned by them in the club championship. Pete Morris has another car which is bone stock just some sticky rubber and he barely goes any slower in that thing than the EMC 996 race car.

The more interesting question is why its so rare to see these cars driven fast, especially given that the air-cooled crowd repeatedly claim their boring and easy to drive fast.

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey


The more interesting question is why its so rare to see these cars driven fast, especially given that the air-cooled crowd repeatedly claim their boring and easy to drive fast.

Perhaps Porsche themselves should be asked this question but for those of us who followed the Pireli and Mitchelin cups in the late 90's early 2000's we already know the answer. The 944 turbo with standard power output but uprated suspension and running on slicks could easily out-perform the 996 and indeed the 996 GT3 which btw were also running on slicks with race setup.
Porsche over a number of seasons did all they could to stop the 944 beating their flagship newer models. First the tyre sizes were changed trying to give the 996 models more grip, then the weight was changed again in an attempt to slow the 944T down. Finally after iirc two seasons with the 996 GT3 being allowed in the cup they banned outright the 944T and all other models. Chris Healey was the guy to watch, again iirc he finished 4th in the last year of the championship allowing 944T's with the most wins but unfortunately the most DNF's too, this was his Achilles heal for a number of years. That year saw 13 GT3's on the grid oh and even with Chris's list of DNF's the GT3's still didn't win, I believe it was Keith in his 80's 911 RS who clinched the title.

The moral to this story is... stick to the 80's cars and to ensure a win make sure it's a 944T, just keep up with the maintenance though ...

Pete

 

[333pg333]

Sure, of course the GT2RS should be a lot faster...but the guy is a pretty experienced driver in that car and while a race driver might have shown Sean nothing but dust, Sean is not a pro driver either. He's a Porsche mechanic who works 6 days a week in their shop. Having said that, he's a naturally good driver and has won our Club Championships before.

In terms of outright comparison, the cars were pretty neck and neck in a straightline and it was only 12-18 months ago that you couldn't look at a Car Magazine without a GT2RS on the cover exclaiming how insanely fast they are. Sean's car with 1.3bar is probably pushing out over 500bhp so I'm not completely convinced that the GT2RS should be lapping him within 10 mins on track.

ps...when watching the video select the 720fps or HD quality lower right hand side.

 

[Hilux]

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Err...now you know i am a huge lifelong 944 fan,but sorry a modern GT porsche will drive around even a modified turbo fairly easy if its driven properly,its not a fair comparison.If the GT2 was on slicks he should be gone plain and simple.

I agree with this 100% even though I never used to, simple fact is that it is very rare to see these cars driven to their capability whereas amongst the 944 crowd we have a long history of nuttyness. I had no problem keeping up with a 7RS round donny the other year but was lapping somewhere in the mid 20's which to me wasn't quick enough but is of course more than fast enough on track days. I reckon that driven properly that 7RS would have easily gone another 10 seconds faster. Even a base model 996 is ridiculously fast, everyone has been stunned by them in the club championship. Pete Morris has another car which is bone stock just some sticky rubber and he barely goes any slower in that thing than the EMC 996 race car.

The more interesting question is why its so rare to see these cars driven fast, especially given that the air-cooled crowd repeatedly claim their boring and easy to drive fast.

Err...now you know i am a huge lifelong 944 fan,but sorry a modern GT porsche will drive around even a modified turbo fairly easy if its driven properly,its not a fair comparison.If the GT2 was on slicks he should be gone plain and simple.

Seconded......................

I have overtaken an Ariel Atom in the Golf and rarri`s and Lambos in Westfields and Ginettas and the 944

Its who is driving and how protective of their car they are.

Passing any car on a track day is not a guide at all as to how good your car is (or how good a driver you are)

 

[333pg333]

Oh, also this wasn't just a normal track day. It was timed competition so people were out there trying pretty hard. The guy with the GT2RS has a lot of cars. Not saying he was reckless by any means but he also is realistic enough to know you can damage the car in events like this when pushing it.

 

[PSH]

ORIGINAL: Hilux


Passing any car on a track day is not a guide at all as to how good your car is (or how good a driver you are)

Exactly Paul, which is why I gave details of the cars under full race conditions, no one was being protective of their car in the Porsche cup that's for sure. It was the 944t's mid range power band that the other cars couldn't keep up with. The commentators back then knew only too well that it didn't matter if the 944T is behind at the start, as about half way into the race was when the 944T's began to overhaul the 996's etc. Often you would hear them say, 'just watch the 944T once he has built up the heat in the turbo, it will blast past the rest'.
Best example of the 944T's handling during a race was at Brands Hatch , Pete Chambers was leading in his 996, Tim Rice was in second in his 944T and third was Chris Healey in his 944T, they had been very close for a few laps. On this occasion they were just coming into the last bend before the main start/finish straight( well it's another long bend really), may be McClaren's but I can't remember these days.
Ok so picture this, Tim was more or less touching Pete's bumber going into the right hand bend, Chris had held back a few yards and then threw his car into a long dirft, not really the fasted way around a bend but he did it so well he came out of the bend in first position, absolutely brilliant, both driver and car.It certainly was a sight to behold seeing his car tyre's smoking as he passed the other two cars.
Chris was always the fastest in the 944T, mind you our own Andrew S had been on pole at Silverstone before. It was due to watching this racing back then that I tracked down Wayne Scofield as it was he while at Red Line racing who was responsible for Chris's performance, Wayne has always been the guy for me ever since.

Fond memories...

Pete

 

[George Elliott]

Patrick,
I think the answer to your question is yes they can compete but it depends on some other factors.

Put a GT2 and a 944 in the rain with the right tyres, and the slower car will be quicker.[8|]
Put a more determined driver in the older car, and the older car will win,
Get the setup and right on the older car, and it will win
and if the older car is lucky with traffic and back markers it will win.
and if you combine all of the above........

Generally speaking the newer cars should be faster and almost always easier to drive.

An example of the older quicker theory was the late Joey Dunlop, in the early 80's he could build his own Yamaha and blow the socks off the might of Honda's works bikes at the Isle of Man, - with the fuel tank balanced between his knees on one occasion. The Hondas were faster, more expensive, had better brakes, better technology, bigger Motor-homes, but the Yamaha could lap faster and more consistently, so it was quicker.
Later, as a Honda rider, Joey could do the same on the works Honda's.
Pete has given a similar picture above.

The fundamental balance of the 944 transaxle layout is superior to a gt2 - but the 911 feels more special in many ways.

Just my 2p
George
944t

 

[333pg333]

I guess there's two ways of looking at this. On one hand, sure the GT2RS should smash a 944 turbo. Look at it, it's got contemporary twin arm rear suspension, massive brakes, VVT turbos, trick inlet, stiff chassis and half cage, superior aero inc flat bottom and it was running on slicks (probably new Michelins). What chance did "˜our hero' have against such a beast? With old trailing arm suspension, flexible chassis by comparison, rubber bushings/bearings and whatever other differences 25yrs of technology involves. Surely the GT2RS was just pootling around not wanting to damage his car. Not so according to that driver. With both drivers of an approximately similar driving standard in a competitive event I think the comparison wasn't too far off the mark. You can clearly see that both cars are trying in a straight line at least and the 944 doesn't lose anything by comparison. Perhaps if you put a race driver in both the inequalities would be more evident.

 

[TTM]

Patrick, can you post the best lap times for all the cars timed this day?

 

[333pg333]

Here you go Thom. 6 out of the top 8 are full race cars. Quite a mix actually. A 997 Cup, 997Cup S, a very modified 996 RSR and some turbo'd BMWs. The only street cars that beat Sean were new GT3 on sticky Michelin slicks.

http://racing.natsoft.com.au/635668102/object_21381744.96K/View?1

 

[PSH]

well looking at the cars on that list Patrick I think your question has been answered in full... long live the 944T....

Pete

 

[TTM]

Yes, the list certainly widens the perspective of this fantastic result []

 

[333pg333]

I know it's a silly hypothetical but add some of the $ difference between some of these cars and Sean's and the times would get substantially closer. Of course he has the benefit of doing all his own work which presents great savings but I'd say he could put together something similar as his car for 10%-20% the cost that has gone into some of the cars ahead of him. A 997 GT2RS would cost the best part of half a million dollars in Australia. Probably more. The Aussie dollar is worth more than the US dollar at the moment so this is not an insignificant amount. It's a shame that converting to a more contemporary suspension setup is not straightforward. Would love to have twin arm layout in my car. Still, it will be interesting to compare what times my car will be doing once it's rebuilt. I was seriously toying with the idea of converting to late model rear suspension and custom front but the budget has run too low. At least we will be able to say that an essentially 944 layout that is stiffer and lighter can give the race cars a real scare"¦well that's the plan! 

 

[barks944]

Fantastic, pat on the back for that man. Has the 3.0 16V setup proven itself as a reliable one now? I see there's been a few builds over in the US.