Brakes - what options are there?

[aporschefan]

I have (a little) plate lift on all 4 callipers. Grr!! So this got me wondering what the best upgrade options are for a '91 (m030) 944t with:

1. 17" wheels

2. 18" wheels

Your thoughts?

I currently have 17" wheels and am thinking of changing these at some point in the future to 18" wheels.

The existing callipers can be refurbished, but it may cost around £1200 to do this. (powder coat, reseal, new pistons etc.)

I'm just undecided if £1200 for new brakes is the best option. For that much money, can someone suggest a better solution?

--
ETA

The £1200 price includes fitting, new pads, and fluid change.

 

[edh]

how much?

who's quoted you that?


- even being generous that's still £1000 for a caliper refurb. IIRC Copperman bought new front 030 calipers for about £400 each. It'll be on his thread somewhere.

One other option with 17" wheels to to buy "big blacks" but you will need new discs as well so not cheap, and not necessary for a road car. The 030 "medium blacks" should give you all the stopping power you need.

I think Alasdair (sulzuruk) will refurb them for you for a good price.

I would even get in touch with Olli Snellman & ship them to Finland - I'm sure he'd do a much cheaper job - and he's very good...

 

[aporschefan]

IIRC Copperman bought new front 030 calipers for about £400 each.

I should have said, its £1200 for all 4 callipers.

 

[edh]

I guessed that - but a grand to refurb 4 calipers is well over the top. I was making the point that you could buy new for near that price.

I bought some big blacks from Exeter PC 5 years ago - cost me £400 for the pair.

 

[944 man]

I think that we should be made aware of the purveyor of this service, for our reference!

As Ed says, buying 928S4 caliper will cost around £400 each new, and big black/red (the same but inverted) will be broadly similar. The S4 calipers that you have will give all of the braking that you need though and I would get those refurbed for a (far) more realistic price. £400 for the lot would be closer to the right price than the comedy 3x price that youve been quoted so far.

Have you tried http://porschecalipers.co.uk/uk/85/kontakt.html ? I would also ask Ian Godney at Godspeed (www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk), and he will probably be able to offer upgraded pistons too.


Simon

 

[944Scott]

Refurb without changing the plates for 4 calipers should be somewhere around £600

 

[Copperman05]

Actually I don't think £1200 is that far off when you consider that's including, removal and fitting, new pads, fluid, new seals, pistons, etc. It all adds up, if the lift is slight you may be able to get away with doing it yourself, Oli has posted something on how to do it somewhere. However I think his (plate lift) returned fairly soon after?

Agree that the m030 calipers should be all you ever need on the road, just make sure you use decent pads and high temp fluid.



Edd

 

[944Scott]

I still think thats high, mine had new pistons and seals during the refurb and I paid half that price, okay I did not need pads and I removed and refitted mine myself but I think thats still a lot of money.

 

[jmelhuish]

I refurbished my own. All I did was brought a seal kit from Bigg Red (Ebay) and used the info on this forum to do the work. You only need basic tools (three g clamps (4 pot caliper) and a high pressure air line (I used a portable one that I use to inflate my tyres).

 

[Hilux]

I have (a little) plate lift on all 4 callipers.

Dont worry about it if its only a little. If you have it real bad you wont get the pads out!

An easy remedy for binding pads if the plate lift is not too bad is to grind a 'little' off the pads - simples - saved yourself £400 []

While the pads are out use an engineers scribe to remove as much crud from under the plates as you can, brush `wonder wheels` in there let it dissolve the furry stuff, scrape it out, wash off with water, dry with an air gun/compressor, stick some copperslip in there and they'll last a long time.

If its a road biased car you really do not need any bigger brakes - good fluid and good pads are all you`ll need.

I used to track my old 944T on standard medium blacks with high boiling point fluid and Performance Friction pads but even that is over the top for road use.

Edited to say.........................dont go bigger than 17" wheels (research on this forum) its a no brainer from many peoples experience as the older suspension design uses control arms and relies on the sidewall compliance wheras modern systems are multilink and designed for low profile tyres and if you are already running 17" wheels then ensure you fit 968 caster mounts (less compliance)

 

[aporschefan]

ORIGINAL: 944Scott

Refurb without changing the plates for 4 calipers should be somewhere around £600

I'm changing the plates as I've got plate lift in all 4 corners.

 

[edh]

The plates probably just need removing, cleaning & re-fitting. The lift is from the caliper corrosion underneath that needs removing.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05
Actually I don't think £1200 is that far off when you consider that's including, removal and fitting, new pads, fluid, new seals, pistons, etc. It all adds up, if the lift is slight you may be able to get away with doing it yourself, Oli has posted something on how to do it somewhere. However I think his (plate lift) returned fairly soon after?

Edd,

Thanks - you remember well and the thread is here:

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=626776&mpage=1&key=brake%2Ccaliper%2Clift%2Coli򙁘
I didn't replace the pistons or seals as they were all OK but did everything else. Two front calipers took me an afternoon or so from start to finish (including repainting), and that's with a moderate DIY workshop. The cost was negligible - pennies for new bolts and some paint, and maybe a fiver for new brake fluid. You are however wrong in remembering that they failed soon afterwards; they are still going strong 18 months later, and the rears which I did six years ago are equally fine.

I disagree with the suggestion that £1200 is at all reasonable - £150 a corner, with all parts and labour, including removal, re-fitting and VAT, would be steep. £1200 for the lot is daylight robbery. It is not a big or difficult job (as long as there is something left of the bolt head to get a grip on to remove the plates) and the high prices are charged by 'specialists' who trade on the mystique of the process and the badge on the side.

BTW, if you tackle the job yourself then the fittings are standard Ford 8mm nipples and pipe ends. Somewhere around £10 for a complete set (for four calipers) on eBay.

This should not be a big or expensive job chaps.


Oli.

 

[944 man]

Strongly agree with the above. £1,200 is a comedy price and Id avoid the firm offering this like the plague.

 

[Copperman05]

Well, I think you guys are forgetting just how expensive it is to get work done on these cars, especially in the south near London. Dont forget the £1200 is NOT just for the refurb, its for removal/fitting, new brake pads, fluid, etc.

ORIGINAL: aporschefan
ETA

The £1200 price includes fitting, new pads, and fluid change.

Lets compare apples with apples, if you break it down as per the OP post.

Agreed full caliper refurb should be about £600, Porschecalipers.co.uk are charging £200 per pair to strip, powder coat and rebuild, WITHOUT NEW SEALS AND PISTONS, add these (as per OP) and your looking at £300 per pair.

Most Porsche specialists will charge about 1hr per corner to remove and fit the calipers. thats 4 hours for the specialist, £55 an hour is about the going rate down here. £220.
Add new pads all round at £150? for anything decent.
Add new brake fluid (Super Blue) £30

Thats £1000 for the above, add VAT = £1200

And thats not including extra labour for removing those bloody hex screws which are nearly always seized, postage to porshecalipers.co.uk, new damper pads, new plates (if required), seized calipers (promax had to take a mallet to one of mine just to get if off)

I'm not saying its the cheapest out there, but for the work listed its not far off if your paying a specialist like Promax or RPM, and I'm sure Paul McN will agree....


Edd

 

[zcacogp]

Fair cop Edd, it all adds up. Add in pads and it looks a bit steeper. But £150 for pads? £30 for brake fluid? Four hours to take four calipers off and put them on again - that's half a day! I did the whole job in less than half a day, and I'm no pro. Calipers come off in 5 minutes and go back on in 10 - the reason garages charge an hour for a corner is because this is the minimum billing unit they have ... [:'(]

I doff my cap to the chaps on here who do such work commercially and charge much lower prices, but you are right - they are not in the SE, which is the home of high prices. But I stand by the argument that £1200 for that lot is very steep, and wouldn't be impressed if a place tried to charge me that much for what is quite a small job.

(I await clarification from Mr P.McNulters esq but understand that the big, big bill he paid was for plate lift as well as a large number of other bits - belts, amongst others.)


Oli.

P.S. If nothing else, this thread is making me very relieved I do all the work on my S2 myself ... !

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: zcacogp

I did the whole job in less than half a day, and I'm no pro. Calipers come off in 5 minutes and go back on in 10 - the reason garages charge an hour for a corner is because this is the minimum billing unit they have ... [:'(]

Come on let's be realistic, 5 minutes to get car on lift, remove wheels, remove calipers, unseize hex screws, pack to send to refurb, refit, fit pads, fill and bleed fluid. Road test. (You want them to test they work right).


Reality is this cars cost £££ to maintain if not doing the work yourself, it's why I'm starting to take mine to self service garage for simple things like oil change and stuff.

Edd

 

[edh]

I checked my recent invoice from ph sportscars - "remove 4 calipers & refit customer supplied calipers" - £70 + VAT, so that's 2 hours, which is still a bit much, but at £35/hour I'm not as worried. And any garage could do that, it's not a "specialist" job.

Even Promax will sell you a full set of Pagids for ~ £100 (Porsche pads are more), and any dot 4 fluid is just fine - bleeding is a quick job for a garage when the car is already in the air with the wheels off - PH charged me £25

so I'm up to around £250 inc VAT, plus the refurb cost. I bought my 4 refurbed calipers (like new) from Catalin - who had them done by Olli Snellman. Cost me £350 (I don't know what he paid). So my total bill, doing none of the work myself, was £600. I sold the old calipers, so it ended up costing me even less.

I'm very happy I don't live in the SE []

 

[944 man]

Im very happy that I bought those calipers! []

 

[edh]

they were a bargain weren't they Simon ? []