brake upgrade
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sawood12
New member
Fitting the later turbo hubs is the best way to go. The hubs are generally bigger with bigger bearings which will benefit you in terms of longevity if you are tracking the car. However if you can find some you are doing well. They are very, very rare. I've been looking for some recently and there are none in stock in the usual breakers. My local breaker had a 250 turbo in recently but was selling the whole brake/suspension/hub setup as a complete set and wasn't willing to break the hubs out.
Contrary to some of the views already expressed there is some milage with the early brake setup. Performance Friction pads, brake fluid, SS hoses and improved ducting will all help. Also make sure you don't have any caliper plate lift and the calipers are in good working order.
Of course if you don't mind the expense then upgradingto the larger caliper setup you are always going to be a better setup ultimately. The calipers are generally larger with more mass therefore have better heat capability, larger pads mean less heat is generated in the first place and the larger piston sizes mean the max clamping force is greater. The larger discs also provide better heat management. They also look the dogs danglies!
I'm not 100% convinced about the benefits of drilled discs. I think their potential problems outweigh any marginal braking performance improvement. If you're after that extra couple or few percent of improvement then fine, but if you are unhappy with your current braking performance then a simple switch to drilled discs is not going to transform them in one foul swoop. People proffess the holes vent gases that build up between the pad and disc, but one of the chief complaints of drilled disks is that the holes get blocked up with brake dust. If gasses were escaping through the holes then how could they block with dust? They are plagued with cracking problems and chew up pads much quicker. Grooved discs in my view are better, but even so I doubt you are getting a night and day transformation in braking performance. You'll get much more improvement with better pads i.e. Performance Friction. The reason why Porsche introduced drilled disks was primarily for weight saving rather than performance improvement.
The caliper brackets cost about £90 new and occasionally 2nd hand ones come up on ebay.
Contrary to some of the views already expressed there is some milage with the early brake setup. Performance Friction pads, brake fluid, SS hoses and improved ducting will all help. Also make sure you don't have any caliper plate lift and the calipers are in good working order.
Of course if you don't mind the expense then upgradingto the larger caliper setup you are always going to be a better setup ultimately. The calipers are generally larger with more mass therefore have better heat capability, larger pads mean less heat is generated in the first place and the larger piston sizes mean the max clamping force is greater. The larger discs also provide better heat management. They also look the dogs danglies!
I'm not 100% convinced about the benefits of drilled discs. I think their potential problems outweigh any marginal braking performance improvement. If you're after that extra couple or few percent of improvement then fine, but if you are unhappy with your current braking performance then a simple switch to drilled discs is not going to transform them in one foul swoop. People proffess the holes vent gases that build up between the pad and disc, but one of the chief complaints of drilled disks is that the holes get blocked up with brake dust. If gasses were escaping through the holes then how could they block with dust? They are plagued with cracking problems and chew up pads much quicker. Grooved discs in my view are better, but even so I doubt you are getting a night and day transformation in braking performance. You'll get much more improvement with better pads i.e. Performance Friction. The reason why Porsche introduced drilled disks was primarily for weight saving rather than performance improvement.
The caliper brackets cost about £90 new and occasionally 2nd hand ones come up on ebay.
The stock brakes on a 944 Turbo (when properly maintained) are more than adaquate for anything you should experience on the street. And with the right pads, fluid and proper maintenance, they're fine for light track work as well (though full on racing will likely lead to fade). When you say "if i have passengers or going at some speed i have trouble stopping", do you mean that when you press on the brake pedal, you can't get the wheels to lock? Or that the wheel lock too easily?
The pads could be glazed thus reducing mechanical grip (so you can't lock the wheels). Or if they lock too easily, you could have old (and thus hardened) tyres. Or if you have problems with brake lines, you could have a very dangerous situation on your hands.
But given what you've said, it sounds like your brakes are in need of maintenance -- and possibly your tyres need to be replaced. Now you have a choice to spend the money to do the maintenance (pads, disks, fluid, lines, brake-cylinder), or you can shell out even more for the 250-setup. Both options are not cheap (it is a Porsche), but the last option will be the most expensive (guessing $500 to $750 extra here in the US for the calipers, adapters, and larger disks - not sure about UK prices).
When I bought my S2, the brakes were in crap condition. Once I distinctly remember pressing the brake pedal as hard as I could and I couldn't get the car to haul down. A new set of pads, fluid and a set of Bridgestone S02s did wonders...
Karl.
sawood12
New member
The cost of overhauling your calipers with new piston seals, caliper plates and shot blasting and powder coating of the caliper bodies compared to the cost of a new setup is marginal. You'd be surprised how much you can get a pair of Big Blacks for brand new - almost cheaper than they tpically go on ebay and with the $ - £ exchange rate at the moment you can save alot. An upgrade kit in the states is $1500 which includes everything you'll need (calipers, discs, pads, adaptor brackets). Even when buying from Exeter OPC they have Right Hand Side calipers going cheap as they bought up some surplus stock from Porsche so you can get a pair of calipers for a shade under £500.
Big Blacks are cheaper than Big Reds and they are the same caliper. This is because Porsche did another production run of Big Reds due to demand and so the later production run incorporates more costs.
Big Blacks are cheaper than Big Reds and they are the same caliper. This is because Porsche did another production run of Big Reds due to demand and so the later production run incorporates more costs.
You could always get a set of late 250 hub assemblies. These would accommodate "Medium Blacks" with 928 S4 32mm wide vented discs. These provide pretty much the same stopping power as Big Blacks as the have the same pistons. The main advantage of Big Blacks, and even bigger discs, is they keep stopping where as you can overheat Medium Blacks eventually.
I believe Lindsey Racing have brake upgrades for most hub configurations and ProMAX have a Wilwood conversion. These may also be worth looking into.
Without doubt the later 250 hub is the best solution if you can get hold of some.
I believe Lindsey Racing have brake upgrades for most hub configurations and ProMAX have a Wilwood conversion. These may also be worth looking into.
Without doubt the later 250 hub is the best solution if you can get hold of some.
Neil Haughey
New member
Agree with above but the easiest upgrade for an S2 is to either fit the 968 duct kit (deflector for wishbone and cowling that fits on strut), or better still fit ducts where the fog lights go and run ducting through the arch to sit on the steering knuckle so the cool air is directed straight at the disk. The first mod is just making an S2 a little more like a 968 but the 2nd approach is more extensive and is what all the S2 race cars prepared by EMC run. So far I have had no brake problems on my race car like this running stock disks, calipers, ATE blue fluid and uprated pads. On the national straight at Silverstone for example you don't even touch the peddle until next to the red and white kerbing on the outside, the car could stop faster with M030 calipers but a lightweight car doesn't have to have them.
sawood12
New member
Boxster brakes. They are lighter than Big Reds/Big Blacks and M030 medium blacks. You'll need an adapter kit for any of these. You should be able to get away with non S brakes - though you'll probably need to go to 17" rims.
Though if you're talking a dedicated stripped out and lightened track day car then standard S2 'little black' brakes are more than adequate assuming they are in fine working order with no plate lift, fresh and decent DOT 4 fluid and ideally some ducting (968 style scoops seem to be quite cheap).
The problem with M030 medium black calipers is that they are difficult to find and will cost you as much as Boxster brakes for a pair of tatty calipers with plate lift in need of a good and expensive refurbishment.
Though if you're talking a dedicated stripped out and lightened track day car then standard S2 'little black' brakes are more than adequate assuming they are in fine working order with no plate lift, fresh and decent DOT 4 fluid and ideally some ducting (968 style scoops seem to be quite cheap).
The problem with M030 medium black calipers is that they are difficult to find and will cost you as much as Boxster brakes for a pair of tatty calipers with plate lift in need of a good and expensive refurbishment.
chrisg
Member
Hiya,
having run a standard (non-lightened) S2 for several years and now an M030 Turbo, my advice would be ensure you existing brakes are in good nick - as previously, no plate lift, fresh uprated fluid Racing Blue or AP 600, braided hoses and decent pads = M1155 or similar.
Unless you're running very sticky tires and/or over use the brakes, this set up should be plenty powerful for track work. One thing you never hear people say is " Porsche always under engineer their brakes...."
having run a standard (non-lightened) S2 for several years and now an M030 Turbo, my advice would be ensure you existing brakes are in good nick - as previously, no plate lift, fresh uprated fluid Racing Blue or AP 600, braided hoses and decent pads = M1155 or similar.
Unless you're running very sticky tires and/or over use the brakes, this set up should be plenty powerful for track work. One thing you never hear people say is " Porsche always under engineer their brakes...."
Big Dave
New member
Yes thats correct Neil, Only snag is youl need 968 wishbones to attatch the lower deflector too. The 944 ones dont have the 2 small alloy lugs in place to bolt the deflector too.
So it starts to get costly....
Best option is to find a set on the M030 / Turbo /928S4 callipers + discs.
Neil Haughey
New member
Very true Dave, I was lucky in that my car had had one of the wishbones replaced by an OPC about 11 years back with a new 968 one, I then exchanged the other to get a pair. I believe some of the guys stateside have made up adapters to mount the deflector on the wishbone. Anyways it wouldn't surprise if a few ppl out there already have 968 wishbones on their S2's or late turbos.
appletonn
New member
ORIGINAL: os951
996 GT3 6-piston front Monoblocks and 4-piston rears with these
Yet more engineering porn from our friend Olli!
Love the apparent quality of all of these parts of yours Olli.
My old heavy hector '44 turbo was fine on track with Medium blacks (no plate lift!), Super Blue fluid, braided hoses and a retrofit of the original ducting from front valance to wheel well only (not fitted to later turbos) and decent Porterfield pads.
Always had firm pedal and decent bite with no sign of fade even at Donnington.
Never as good as the brakes on my old 'beetle' mind you, but I'd blame the LHD/RHD brake linkage arrangement for that.
edh
New member
030 brakes sound like a good idea - fit under 16's etc.. but you need the hubs, calipers & discs so works out expensive.
We all agree I think - cooling (number 1 top mod & v cheap) and then pads. If they make them for your caliper, try some performance friction PFC 97's. They were way better than 1155's (although twice the price) in my turbo. Even ChrisG commented on my late braking - and he doesn't scare easily.... []
We all agree I think - cooling (number 1 top mod & v cheap) and then pads. If they make them for your caliper, try some performance friction PFC 97's. They were way better than 1155's (although twice the price) in my turbo. Even ChrisG commented on my late braking - and he doesn't scare easily.... [
] 
Peter Empson
PCGB Member
I have 944T calipers on my car, run Castrol SRF with Porterfield R4-S pads and the combination is easily sufficient for my needs (even without extra cooling). However I would recommend just trying a serious pad/fluid upgrade before spending money on major changes. The Porterfields are cheaper than Performance Friction but I believe very similar (same tech etc - I will be back to back testing them soon to settle this debate), buy direct from the States for the best prices (either from EBS or through eBay etc).
Tam Lin
New member
Anyone know of a supplier for the Boxster adapter kit? I've been thinking about this swap for my 924S. Currently I run Wilwoods up front and 951 Little Blacks on the back, with the 968 scoop on early 951 front A-arms, and although I've never had problems on track, the fronts do get very grumbly on the Autobahn, where frequent stops from 120 Mph are the order of the day.
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