Attention 2010/2011 Turbo and S Owners – Camshaft Controller Failure (US Safety Recall)

[732WKX]

Yesterday evening i filled in the VSDR forms on the DVSA site stating what has happened to my vehicle and the dangers caused when having to stop with no steering or brakes
in traffic.
I do suggest anyone either having suffered engine failure or worried about when it's going to happen!
GET the forms filled we have to get a recall and compensation.

 

[Paul Mitchell]

Hi Ben B,
I bought my 2010 Panamera 4S used in july 2018 and after adding 6000 miles to the clock, last week my car experienced this issue on the motorway, at speed.
I had the car towed to Project 9 engineering in Tonbridge, Kent who have informed me that this is a known fault and initial quote for engine rebuild is £8500k. Needless to say this is a shock and unacceptable given the revelations I have learned from your post. Given that Porsche saw this issue as a safety issue in a number of countries but not the UK is enough premise for a legal case to be mounted I believe.
Im not sure if you have experienced the same problem as me or are just aware of it but I welcome any collaboration from yourself in taking Porsche UK to task over this.
I can be contact on 07711 406799,
best
Paul Mitchell

 

[too_good]

Paul (and Gordon) - thank you very much for posting and welcome to the forum/club.

Sorry to hear of your issue - assume the garage specifically cite failed/sheared camshaft adjuster bolts? It is no surprise sadly that it is a known fault to them - based on this forum and appallingly, it only appears to be OPCs and Porsche GB which feign ignorance. I carried out a preventative repair of my car in late 2017 when I learnt of this issue given the safety risks presented to my family (and other road users) in the event of a failure, not to mention great inconvenience and escalated repair costs. The North London specialist I used for the work verified that the camshaft assembly contained the defective bolts – which I still have at home – and had seen multiple such engine failures back in 2017 (and more since).

What mileage has your 4S covered out of interest (clearly there is an increased incidence of cases as these 7/8/9 year old V8s reach 50k miles+)?

Was there a warning light when the failure occurred? Was the car still driveable? Was the situation dangerous? I ask all these questions (and similar ones of Gordon below) given my experience when reporting this issue to both the DVSA and Porsche GB directly. The DVSA in their response to me said that a defect "is likely to affect the safe operation of the product…and may pose a significant risk to driver, occupants or others.”

@Gordon - my car is also 2010 (60 plate) Turbo w/ mileage in the 50s. Glad you have registered your concerns with the DVSA - please do of course let us know in due course of their response (to set expectations, it took 3 months for me to get a final response from them). It sounds like the failure meant you lost power steering and hydraulic brakes – was this an instant failure or a case of ‘reduced power’? Also, was there some warning of an issue from the car, with the car driveable such that you had a reasonable amount of time to manoeuvre out of trouble?

Porsche asserted via the DVSA that "they have had no reports of sudden failures to the engine causing dangerous situations...there is insufficient evidence of a wider problem” Porsche also confirmed to the DVSA that "your vehicle was built after the affected vehicles." Astonishing given the recall of c.35k cars worldwide and recurring cases of this issue being presented, as far as I know based on these forums, to both UK OPCs and UK Porsche specialists, etc., etc., etc.!

-------------

To remind me, has anyone else on this forum besides me and Gordon lodged a report with the DVSA???

I would like to know the number of people and rough dates to establish the ‘noise level’ (please do lodge a complaint if you have not already and advise when done!), as I intend to write back to the DVSA. Part of their rejection of my original November 2017 compliant was that "a search of DVSA’s defects database has revealed no similar reports.” Moreover, to reiterate the disgraceful stance of Porsche, the DVSA said "the official response from the manufacturer concludes there is insufficient evidence of a wider problem to warrant an action within the terms of the [Vehicle Safety Defects] Code.”

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In the interest of creating more of a platform for this issue, I have just discovered there is a UK Motoring Ombudsman - do we agree it is worth reporting this issue to them too?

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/make-a-complaint

I hope we can collectively make the authorities and Porsche do the right thing here (it is long overdue and a fluke that no one has yet been hurt as a result of this design and safety defect I think).

 

[Paul Mitchell]

Hi Too Good
i spoke to Gordon by phone about this today.
My car is off the road with an engine rebuild the only way out with a price tag of £8.5k so I am going straight to legal. There is enough evidence to show that this could and should have been dealt with by Porsche UK and I could have been killed when my car stopped on the motorway.
The police attended me and set up a cordon to protect me so I have their report plus the engineers plus the precedent set by Porsche in the US and other markets.
So let’s see how they respond to a high court writ.
If you and Gordon want to join me as Co-complainants please contact me. I’m seeing my lawyer at 10am Monday.
best
Paul

 

[732WKX]

Hi
Yes, instant failure, the first thing I felt was a total loss of engine power lights flashing on the dash, to be honest, i was to busy avoiding traffic and finding a place to park safely and not get hit.
Porsche GB is trying very hard to pretend this is a USA and China problem and not the UK.
I received this earlier today from Porsche UK

Dear Sir

I understand your position in relation to the recalls in the USA and China, however owing to the difference in build and regulations, recalls do not apply across all Countries.

As requested, I will ensure that your full complaint is visible in Germany. In regard to having this matter investigated and rectified going forward, I can only advise that you take your vehicle to a Porsche Centre.
Kind regards

Fills me with hope!

I did reply pointing out the fact that the OPC in my area could not fix the stutter under acceleration when still within Porsche Warranty period, they changed a turbo to intercooler pipe which I was charged for made no difference and since the engine issue I have lost all confidence in them and hence sent the vehicle to an independent Porsche garage to be fixed (hopefully).
Unless someone can prove me wrong I'm under the impression that if the cam bolts were unwinding or shearing there would be a small amount of slack in the cam chain hence stutter on acceleration, obviously, now the stuttering has stopped!

Maybe we should restart this thread to gather everyone that has had an engine failure with the 4.8's plus also I notice diesel engines are having similar problems with the camshaft bolts.
And make sure everyone fills in the forms on DVSA site even if they haven't had this issue but are worried i am under the impression that failure rate is 100%if you have the wrong bolts.
Regards Gordon.

 

[Paul Mitchell]

Hi Ben,
can you let me know the name of the porsche service centre in north London you used? The service centre that has my vehicle on the ramp now is holding me ransom to an estimated £4500 of labour and £2000 of parts plus VAT to fix my Panamera. Mine is not drivable as the bolt heads have sheered off on mine.
Thanks
Paul

 

[too_good]

Paul/Gordon - I am shaking my head in disbelief at your near misses and the apparent ongoing negligence and disgraceful response of Porsche at OPC and GB level (nonsense such as not being aware of a wider issue, does not affect UK cars, only results in reduced power and driver is duly warned, car remains driveable, etc.). Your cases squarely meet the DVSA’s safety defect criteria I think, whereas I had no first hand issue to reference in my complaint and could only cite the empirical evidence from other countries.

Anyway, I believe the stuttering you experienced Gordon could indeed point to insecure camshaft adjusters jostling in situ as a result of the weakening bolts - clearly, the failure of one or two bolts adds pressure to the rest and sooner or later total failure ensues.

I also agree that a matter of time before failure occurs as there is a fundamental design defect and the load placed on these fragile bolts overwhelms them eventually - I doubt there are many high mileage V8s (say 100k+ miles) around built in 2010/2011 with the original bolts.

I am sure ringing around a few specialists would reveal their experience with this issue as more older cars are run out of warranty these days (drivers under warranty having this issue would have it sorted, often with a brand new engine, by their OPC and perhaps not think too much of it, report it on forums, etc.).

I am taking my Turbo in for new discs first thing tomorrow incidentally at the same specialist that replaced my camshaft adjusters...I doubt they would mind me naming them on here, but shall check. I‘ll also get their view on the stuttering acceleration. Back in touch tomorrow morning both.

Best wishes,
Ben

 

[dpoynton]

I doubt they would mind me naming them on here, .....

Praising people for good work is fine (perhaps, as you say, with their agreement), but you must not name a firm where you've had a bad experience, this is not allowed for fear of a potential claim against PCGB for defamation.

I hope you all get a satisfactory outcome, it seems that we must take extended warranties these days.

David

 

[too_good]

Understood David, thank you.

I spoke to the shop in question: 911 SBD. They are in the NW2 area - a traffic-heavy schlep for me from SW London but I trust their expertise, they price very competitively and I can only recommend them highly. Check out their Google reviews (mine is on there under the moniker ‘B B’).

My contact for the camshaft assembly replacement was Raj – when I dropped my car off for brake work this morning, the guys said they have seen quite a few of these V8 failures at different stages (bolts starting to loosen through to blown engines). No surprise there. They are passionate and resourceful experts and appeared to be the most au fait with the camshaft issue when I phoned around various indy shops previously.

PS: I am getting my brakes done there now, along with an MOT and some bodywork repair. They have provided a transparent and very fairly priced quote this morning (and been able to save me some money). It is not an exaggeration to say that despite the car’s disappointing and unexpected frailties (let’s not forget inherent transfer case issues, high pressure fuel pump and ignition coil failures, etc.), these guys make it much less painful.

Best wishes,
Ben

 

[Paul Mitchell]

Thanks Ben

 

[Paul Mitchell]

Guys,
This is the website of a repair centre in the US and it shows clearly what the issue is with photos of the sheered off bolts.
https://fifthgear.biz/fifthgear-blog/porsche-cayenne-and-panamera-camshaft-adjuster-bolts/

 

[too_good]

Good article that one, thanks for uploading. Telling that it was posted 2 years ago and this was in response to "many reports" of such failures by that time in the US.

Porsche GB appear to be persisting with their view that there is 'insufficient evidence of a wider problem' and that UK cars are magically unaffected despite using identical looking aluminium bolts with the telltale centre pin...and, much more importantly, more and more incontrovertible evidence to the contrary based on both unfortunate UK owner and indy garage insights.

@Paul - not sure if I could be a co-complainant on your writ given I have not suffered detriment arising from the failure in question? Albeit, I of course seek a refund/compensation for the £2k+ preventative repair undertaken in 2017 and associated inconvenience.

Best wishes,
Ben

 

[732WKX]

Up Date
Went to see my engine yesterday morning for the damage report.
All parts of the 4 bolts have been accounted for 1 in the camshaft area 2.5 in the front sump directly below the cam chain and the other bits
hanging around the cam chain tensioners.
So the engine doesn't need to be removed just everything in front of the engine so you can get the cam covers off, lower subframe needed to be dropped slightly
to access the front small sump IF all the parts weren't found we would have taken the larger ladder sump of which is a bit of a pain.
Leak down test has been done all appears to be OK, now have to wait for the assessor from DVSA and warranty company to inspect the damage.
I will try and get some images up later! and more info,

Regards Gordon.

 

[Paul Mitchell]

Wonder why my garage is saying the whole engine needs to be removed and rebuilt?

 

[732WKX]

Hopefully, my link in the previous post works right click and follow the link there are a few pictures of my engine in bits if people cannot access let me know!.
Paul
Have they taken the top of the engine apart?
If so how many bits have they found, looking at where the bolts used to live and how far they can go once broken is limited oil flow will stop them flying to far so they are going to be either as mine
around the cam or down the camshaft hole which means they will collect in the front sump below the camshaft, once in the sump they are trapped because there is a gauze filter to stop anything getting back into the oil system.
IF you haven't found all the bits they could be in the ladder sump as mentioned earlier, now the other thing is a soak test on the valves which they can do easily if they pass the valves should be OK.
I think stripping the engine down and rebuilding is overkill, it might be a good idea to get a second opinion, my guys, down here would be more than happy to help.
Williams Crawford Ltd. 01752840307 ask for Richard Williams he is a co-owner and dealing directly with my Cayenne.

Going back to the cam adjuster bolts mine are aluminium i have read a lot about them having a steel pin running through the centre which mine certainly don't have hence shearing so easily under pressure

 

[too_good]

Fingers crossed for you Gordon, prognosis is looking up! A Plymouth/Tamar Bridge area phone number for your shop I see. A point on the bolts - those with the centre pin are the weak/defective ones (my car had these). Upgraded all-steel design has no centre pin. Assume yours has the former?

Very interesting that you have a DVSA assessor involved and look forward to their findings (all the more reason for any affected or worried owners to report this issue to them to raise its profile).

Best,
Ben

 

[732WKX]

Hi Ben
Yes, they're based in Saltash just into Cornwall from Plymouth very recently moved into new premises.
Photo of offending bits of bolts, on the first head it looks as though it managed to get between cam sprocket and chain there is a definite dig in the head I'm wondering if this was the moment everything came to a grinding halt!
I am bemused there aren't more people getting involved in this in the UK as it is a major problem with all 4.8l engines 2010 - 2012 reasonably well-reported issue worldwide, maybe owners that have suffered this engine failure just think it is just one of those things and had it fixed or are in denial it won't happen to them.
I can assure them when it happens it's not something you forget any time soon, I was extremely lucky in being able to get to safety and not hit anybody around me.

To everyone that is concerned DVSA is your friend, get filling their paperwork it doesn't take long we need to get a recall before someone is hurt,
A 2 tonne + SUV can cause a lot of damage.
Regards Gordon.

 

[condor]

Hi All ..
I originally posted on this topic in October 2017. I took the matter up with the OPC that looks after my Cayenne Turbo (2011), and they refused 'point blank' to rectify the parts in question. Their claim wasn't that my chassis number did NOT the parts in question. My car is covered by Porsche extended warranty until November 2019, which would not help me in the consequences of any part failure, but as the OPC informed me, would cover the repair, should the incident occur.
I've not taken the matter any further, but am interested to learn more.
Jeremy

 

[too_good]

They are certainly the offending bolts (they appear two piece - no wonder they loosen or fail sooner or later given the strain put under). Upgrade is a solid one piece steel component - no centre pin.

Theoretically a number of these failures will have been covered under Porsche warranties over the years, no questions asked. Hypothetically, other engines have been fixed/replaced under NDAs.

Regrettably expect we shall increasingly hear of cases over the next year or two as mileages tick on and as owners of older/lower value cars are arguably less inclined to cover them under expensive comprehensive warranties...but will not stand for being endangered and/or their Porsche suddenly losing a big chunk, or all, of its value...

Best,
Ben

 

[732WKX]

Hi Jeremy
Good to see you back on the case, I ditched my Porsche warranty when it ran out in favor of Warrantywise who are better priced and fix thing when they go wrong
without wriggling and squirming they just get it done, I have used them a few times in the past with very good results.
Regards Gordon.