944 turbo power upgrade

[James Beaumont]

I have a 2.5 turbo 1989 250bhp model with 139k car runs very well for its age, I had it on a rolling road last year and it 248bhp.

I'm thinking off adding a Vitesse maf kit and piggy back ECU kit, 72 lbs injectors, dual port waste gate and manual boost control.

I have adder already 3bar reg and new fuel filter and uprated fuel pump and it came with 3" rear exhaust system.

has any one done this already ?
what sort of power would this make ?
James

 

[TTM]

Hello,

The Vitesse MAF kit works but is now overpriced in my opinion. A large drawback is that it requires splicing through the engine wiring harness, which is a very fiddly job and a never-really-go-back solution.
Even if it allows tuning the fuel delivery, it is pretty much all you will be able to do as far the engine tune is concerned - no access to ignition timing settings, acceleration enrichment and knock control to list a few of the most relevant aspects of tuning a boosted engine.

Many people sell ready-to-fit Motronic chipsets that give pretty good performance from the standard engine components and investing in a MAF or any other deeper aftermarket engine control device makes sense when swapping major components such as the turbo, the camshaft, etc, so the question would be how far do you want to go in terms of modifying your car to make most sense of the money you plan to spend. I personally would stick to chipsets that work with known turbos or go deeper right away and invest in a complete aftermarket ECU with all the support needed to walk my way through it, which will give enough flexibility to tune the engine with ease pretty much regardless of the components being replaced at a later time.

 

[os951]

Forget Vitesse. Call Tom Barks.

 

[PSH]

Hi James


I have the Vitesse with piggyback and rate it highly, do a little research on it and I'm sure you'll find it's rated up there with the best, yes it is a little expensive but then John, once you've given him details of your car, will give you a package that will work out of the box ready for when you can make use of the piggyback on a rolling road to get the most from your car. Wiring up isn't difficult but you need to allow time, don't rush a job like this , the instructions are very good. I'm not a great fan of ready made chips, you will never get the most from your car using them, to many variables in them to allow safe running of different cars. Although the early Vitesse concentrated mainly on fuel management the current version also allows timing adjustment too, although how far do you wish to go? there are some very powerful 944t's out there using factory timing.
With the items you've listed you should be able to see 350 bhp but not with the stock turbo, that would need upgrading to get much over 300bhp. Going higher still you will need more goodies, cylinder head being the most obvious upgrade. I would recommend you get a 944 expert to set your car up on the rollers once you have installed the parts planned, imho Wayne Scofield (ex chip wizards) is the man to go to.
Tom's name has also been mentioned, I'm not familiar with Tom's ECU but would expect it to be very good and he's UK based so would be a good place to check out http://www.augmentautomotive.co.uk/augtronic

Regards

Pete

 

[T3rra]

Answer is 300/320. Like Thom said maf kit isn't needed. A chipset will get simmler figures Probably better spent the £££ on rebuilt turbo and 3" elbow and decat exhaust, but is 320 anoth? Or will you want more? More will come from changing the turbo, here is where maf kit and piggyback would shine.

Now if you plan to go beyond 320 at some point tom barks augrtronic ecu and map set up would be best. Your have full control and tuning to your engine rather then a chip set. You won't need boost gauges and pods everything can be monitored from a app on your mobile smart phone or laptop. Is this was your future goal maybe say
tarting with toms kit 1st would make sense and run around 300/320 till your ready to change turbo

 

[James Beaumont]

Thanks guys, i did find augment auto motive site later last night and did some more reading on tuning etc now thinking of replacing the full exhaust system
with a Fabspeed one, really would like 350to400 bhp but keeping the car drivable for road use and odd track day.

Later in a few years I would like to go to a 3l engine so would like the kit to be reused.

 

[DarrylH]

This thread might be worth a read:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=766383&mid=239541&i=0&nmt=300bhp%2C+350lbs+feet+torque+944+3+litre+turbo&mid=239541

Theres a decent quote to take on page 2 from Jon Mitchell:

We have found the following limitations on performance tuning and standard parts on the 944 turbo. Much of this is relevant whatever the engine size, due to flow restrictions.

Standard exhaust (non cat) 350-360 BHP
Standard k26/6 turbocharger (220 cars) 300 BHP (beyond this it becomes a heat pump)
Standard k26/8 turbocharger (250 cars) 320 BHP (beyond this it becomes a heat pump)
standard Cylinder head (2.5) 420 BHP
standard throttle body 420 BHP
Standard fuel pump - 320 BHP
Standard injectors - 320 BHP
Standard breather system - 340 BHP
Intake manifold - 420 BHP

All of these items reflect a 2.5 through to 3.2 944 turbo.

 

[PSH]

Hi James

Regarding exhaust, the figures in my signature are with a standard exhaust so you'll make good power anyway....having said that with the set-up i had at the time a large bore exhaust and upgrade of intercooler would have taken me over the 400 bhp easily...the exhaust and the turbo downpipe need changing to get that type of power.

Pete

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: os951

Forget Vitesse. Call Tom Barks.

This would be my advice too. Go straight to Tom Barker's Augment Automotive plug-compatible DME replacement.

 

[T3rra]

You won't get over 320 with stock turbo. Don't need 3ltr engine to make 400, my gtx spool up much the same as 26/8 even quicker then a stock turbo set up

 

[James Beaumont]

So looking at all the ways to go I think try this

Fabspeed system
new intercooler and pipes make ?
new injectors
Tom Barker's Augment Automotive ecu, air intake maf
up grade turbo make size ?
dual port waste gate make size ?
turbo control

with my being 1989 mk2 944 does have cat?, never seen a exhaust system like before.
If I got the fabspeed system does that have the decat pipe and cross over pipe?

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: T3rra
Don't need 3ltr engine to make 400

You may get 400hp out of a 2.5, but it will blow up after a short while if driven repeatedly on full load.

130 hp/L with the 2V head is a reasonable figure to aim for. Anything higher than this is asking for trouble if reliability is a concern.

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: TTM

ORIGINAL: T3rra
Don't need 3ltr engine to make 400

You may get 400hp out of a 2.5, but it will blow up after a short while if driven repeatedly on full load.

130 hp/L with the 2V head is a reasonable figure to aim for. Anything higher than this is asking for trouble if reliability is a concern.

MarkK's red one is still working fine after many years....so 400hp from a 2.5 and longevity is possible.

There are diminishing returns when modifying the 2.5 & it's a question of how far you get along that point before you stop.. To my mind the low cost route is just Tial, MBC and chips, which gets you up to ~300 and is a great upgrade. From there, everything starts to get expensive, and you will uncover all the other weak points of your car. In particular, high power on track days needs plenty of cooling for oil and water (and intake air).

I used Vitesse on my turbo - good product, but I wouldn't bother again on a stock turbo. If you really want to start chasing power & go for a different turbo, I'd have thought Tom's stuff was the first point of call - UK product so local support. I don't have any direct experience with it but there are some good testimonials from trusted users on here.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: edh
MarkK's red one is still working fine after many years....so 400hp from a 2.5 and longevity is possible.

How much stress is engine enduring? A dyno run and prolonged engine load on the road are not the same thing.

If I remember right this engine made 400hp running 1.5 bar of boost, and if this was with a LR75 turbo with a #10 KKK hotside back pressure is going to be dangerously high (certainly more than 3 bar) to hope keep reliability for something like a several minute long derestricted Autobahn run in top gear.

 

[edh]

It sees a fair few trackdays, and Mark isn't slow...

Good enough for me

 

[Suffolk944]

Mark's car must have been modified up to 400 horse power getting on for a decade ago now if memory serves and is still going well as far as I know. Am sure he will be along soon to up date us ! The other 2.5 400hp car that I know of was WUF owned and modded by Rick Cannell. He has since sold it on but it certainly had plenty of spirited use and again I believe is still going strong ?

In answer to the OP there are quite a number of ways to get up to the figures you are looking for. My own car has the LR turbo, Vitesse MAF, bigger injectors, replacement FPR, Electronic boost controller etc as per my signature. Have just about run the course of what I want to do power wise to my car, though an uprated intercooler will hopefully be added sometime between now and next spring. Its not just the power hike decent mods give you, it the way that power is delivered compared to stock that makes a huge difference too. Even modest changes to get to the 280 - 300 hp mark will lead to considerably less lag and better pick up, dramatically improving the driveability of the car.

Personally I would give either Andy Everett at Promax and/or John Mitchell at JMG a call as a starter for ten and then decide the course you wish to follow.

 

[MarkK]

Car runs great been to 3-4 track days this year It goes really well for a comfy road car,not been to the Ring recently or Spa ,it's all a long time ago now but the car is mapped properly,and has superb flow and maybe that's its secret?
Car is still very pretty and I just have serviced nothing else since it had the work done,it goes to Porsche Leicester as they are local.
When I have some time I would like to drop it by the guys at Promax as they were the creators.
They know how to make a car last they partially rebuilt and tuned my Ex turbo racecar and that did a whole long season without missing a beat including hour long races.....
Mike P had a lift in the red one around Oulton in the wet,he can give you a description of what it's like[8D]

 

[Mike_Pollock]

I'll certainly vouch for how well it goes and how it gets used!
First saw it 6 -7 years on the M1. Its been out to loads of places including 3 or 4 trackdays, Oulton and Silverstone come to mind. As other's have said Mark is a very quick and competitive driver, so trackdays mean its has to work and eork it does, always embarrassing "faster" cars.
He doesn't spare the car amd it has had no major work on it since its conversion about 9 ? years ago. Its a great example of a high bhp turbo 944. Believe its about 180k miles and it is good on the road too, if a little low - great car I'd love it!

 

[MarkK]

It was fun that day wasn't it Mike[]
It's still relatively low mileage and below 100k I think you are getting mixed up with the Blue one.
Another great tuned Turbo is Graham's Ferdie I drove behind him on the way to Rutland and it easily gets to the maximum permitted speeds allowed by law.Lovely Turbo S and looks really period.
Still think about the blue racecar I think it's for sale at EMC incase anyone is interested?

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Car runs great been to 3-4 track days this year It goes really well for a comfy road car,not been to the Ring recently or Spa ,it's all a long time ago now but the car is mapped properly,and has superb flow and maybe that's its secret?
Car is still very pretty and I just have serviced nothing else since it had the work done,it goes to Porsche Leicester as they are local.
When I have some time I would like to drop it by the guys at Promax as they were the creators.
They know how to make a car last they partially rebuilt and tuned my Ex turbo racecar and that did a whole long season without missing a beat including hour long races.....
Mike P had a lift in the red one around Oulton in the wet,he can give you a description of what it's like[8D]

I was at Porsche Leicester the other week - I was meaning to have a word....Black Wheels? - [] []