944 Turbo Panel Gaps

[jmpcgb]

Hi all, new on here and hoping I could get some feedback on a 944 turbo I'm looking at purchasing.

Car is a 1990 turbo, 100k miles, great history file, all the important bits looked after. One thing that is worrying me are the panel gaps either side of the bonnet, they are 7 - 8mm wide at the widest point both sides. Is this normal for a 944, maybe others can give some feedback on the panel gaps on their cars? The gap is the same both sides, narrower at front and at windscreen end, widest in the middle, pretty much symmetrical.

It's the only 944 turbo for sale here in Ireland at the moment so not much to compare it to. Car was imported from the UK in 1999, have checked HPI and that's come back clear. Car doesn't have the options code sticker inside the rear hatch either but I can see the patch of glue where it used to be, maybe rear hatch leaked?!

Any help or advice appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[zcacogp]

James,

Hi, welcome.

I've never heard anyone ask about panel gaps on a 944 before, and that's probably because it isn't that relevant. These are cars from the '80's when panel gaps were generally much larger than today, and most of them will have been bashed and repaired at some time in their life. Added to that is the fact that the front end of a 944 has a LOT of panel gaps to get right (the headlights and the badge panel - the bit between the headlights, with the badge in the middle of it - can all go out of alignment and need a bit of a tweak) and hence it is very unlikely that they will be perfect. (Did you happen to look to see whether the headlights were sitting flush with the surface of everything around them? I bet they weren't!)

There are more important things to look at when buying a 944; rust in the sills, for one thing. Rust in the rear wheel arches, and rust in the front wings immediately behind the wheel, for another. When I bought my S2 (nearly 8 years ago) everyone was fussy about whether cars had the paper sticker on the rear crossmember in the boot showing the options when the car was made (mine does) but no-one seems bothered about that now, probably because many have been repaired.

Best advice I can give if you have never owned a 944 before is to either to take it to a specialist for a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) and pay a couple of hundred quid to have the faults pointed out to you, or find a local enthusiast who knows a good 944 from a bad one who can do the same for you, for some beer tokens. The cost of such a service would be dwarfed by the cost of putting a bad 944 right if you were to buy the wrong one.

Keep us posted with how you get on.


Oli.

 

[chrisg]

Excellent write up by Oli !

He's spot on regarding the front end and minor bashes. Many years ago I used to race 924 - virtually identical shell, trying to keep/ get the front end in-line , wedge shape is very difficult. It's a very strong shell but easily drops out of perfect alignment.

To echo Oli's sentiments, panel gap (unless it's hiding something very castastrophic) is really the last thing to worry about on a car 20 + yrs old, rust and MOT failure stuff are the big issues:

1. Are the front to rear brake & fuel lines (particularly going up over the rear axle) solid and passable by an MOT techician ?

2. Sills and the rear lower section of the front wings solid or rusted through ?

3. Have the cam/balance belts water pump, and/or radiator been changed at all or recently (last 3 yrs) ?

4. Difficult to check but what state/ stage of wear is the clutch at ?

5. How viable/ in what state is the head gasket ? - again difficult to check

All the above will cost a lot of time (= money) to fix and fix correctly and most of them require a reasonable level of A. Confidence and B. Competence to complete by the 'weekend warrior'.

Sorry if the above list scares you, the 944 Turbo (and S2....) are great cars to own, you just have to be realistic about on-going maintenance and repair costs.

Chris

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

Hi, I wouldn't be unduly worried by the panel gap you quote, compared to modern cars the gaps are bigger, more noticeable on the wing to bonnet for sure.

My car is low mileage with original panels and the gaps are within the range you quote, I think also the rubber bump stops in the wing rail set the gap to some extent.

Cheers, Paul

 

[jmpcgb]

Have a look at this thread on the Pelican Parts website, it refers to an earlier car but all the bonnets are the same dimensions..:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/641637-questions-about-hood-gaps-83-n-944-a.html

 

[T3rra]

Pannle gaps will bother you if they do now. And can be adjuseted. Should be 6.5/7 mm all round. But what's more noticeable then pannle gaps are the crease lines in the headlights and badge pannle and wings.

My turbo still needs adjusement Iv had ago but I think one off the new wings need twisted slightly. Not as easy as it was when I swapped my n/a to a turbo front end, I cut the n/a wings 2 suit bumper shape, had 2 swap head light lids and badge pannle and got it perfect.

Turbo still brothers me, funny thing is a checked over and over the car for a good hour while talking when I 1st looked at it and never noticed till I after I brought it.

If the wings and bonnet are even then the headlights can be tweaked easyly anoth.

 

[jmpcgb]

Thanks for all the advice and feedback, much appreciated.

I'm going back for another look on Friday afternoon and if I'm happy enough, I think I'll get a pre purchase inspection done by a local specialist. I have a boroscope also with a camera on the end so I'll send that down the vent holes to get a look at the sills, from looking on here thats the one thing that would really worry me. I'm handy with the spanners but have never attempted any body repairs, don't think I would have the patience for it!!

I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again,
James

 

[jmpcgb]

Hi again,

I've put a deposit the car however another issue has now raised its head. The VIN number on the car is SABTVR***********. Which means that the car was on a Q plate in the UK before it was exported to Ireland in 1999. It was essentially issued a new VIN by the DVLA. I have spoken to the guy who originally imported the car and he said that the car was stolen recovered in the UK, had its identity stolen and was then re-issued with a new VIN after being held by the authorities for a period of time.

The history file with the car only starts from the date of the MOT after the new VIN was issued (1998) so there is no history from before this going back to 1990 when the car was supposedly built. Car has been enthusiast owned since it came to Ireland and has been impeccably maintained. Car is in great shape overall, cant fault it.

I can't find any of the original chassis numbers on the car and even the engine number has been drilled out!

Any of you ever heard of anything like this? Does it add up?!

 

[zcacogp]

Sounds very rum and no, I have never heard of anything like that before.

Having said that, buying on condition is key. As McNulters says, whether it had a new set of wiper blades 20 years ago is pretty immaterial now; what matters is what is wrong with it now, whether it has been loved, whether everything works and whether it is going to throw up a big bill in the next year or so. All of which you check by looking at the condition, the recent history, the current owner and so on.


Oli.

 

[PAUL RUDDY]

Unless it is very very cheap I would run a mile.

Cheers, Paul

 

[MartinRS2K]

I agree, get the ferry over to England and take a couple of days viewing 3-4 cars over here.

Unless the car is very cheap I would walk away and find a genuine car that doesn't have a dubious history.

 

[George Elliott]

Any of you ever heard of anything like this? Does it add up?!

James, its unusual, but yes it adds up, : high value car (in the '90's) so a theft risk, low mileage, previously stolen and ID removed, Recovered and issued new ID and Q plate, UK value of Q plate 944 is dire, so export to IRL, loose the Q plate, lovely clean low miles car (due to time out of use while stolen) and well cared for since by the sound of it.

Unusual but - subject to doing your homework, not a walk away situation.

The panel gaps are normal - they seem vast in 2013 though.[8|]

good luck

George

 

[pauljmcnulty]

James, its unusual, but yes it adds up, : high value car (in the '90's) so a theft risk, low mileage, previously stolen and ID removed, Recovered and issued new ID and Q plate, UK value of Q plate 944 is dire, so export to IRL, loose the Q plate, lovely clean low miles car (due to time out of use while stolen) and well cared for since by the sound of it.

Unusual but - subject to doing your homework, not a walk away situation.

I'd be tempted to agree; although my head would be saying "Run, Forest, Run", my heart would say it could be a bargain.

But. You have to look at it the same way as any other Porsche with "history". Firstly, is it totally legal, and any repairs properly documented? Is it in as good, if not better, condition that other options?

Just like a Boxster with a cat-c, or a re-shelled GT3RS, you have to pay way under for it, and be prepared to accept the same when you sell. I suppose I can see the point when it's a GT3 for, say, £20K under-valued, you run it for a while, then sell for £20K under value. You get a great car for less outlay, and lose no more than with a "straight" car. How those figures stack up on a 944 I'm not so sure, though? The saving might only be the price of a set of tyres, and is that small saving worth the risk?

 

[andy watson]

Hi James,

Might be worth letting us know how much it is? If it is in good condition and has recent mechanical history then buying a S/R or a write off vehicle wouldn't worry me, as long a the it's was reflected in the asking price a per the reasons in Paul M's post.

However the main thing that would concern me is that in your original post, you say the HPI came back clear, surely that should not be the case given that you know the history of the theft etc?

As the others have said, unless it is really cheap - forget it

 

[jmpcgb]

I've just rang the dealer to tell him I will not be proceeding with the purchase. He was not pleased!

The HPI did come back clear but looking at it now, it shows the date of first registration as the 1/4/1998 which would have been when the car was given its new VIN number!

I had agreed a price of €5,500 which is about £4,500. Probably a reasonable price compared to prices in UK at the moment but just decided I couldn't live with the questionable history.

Here's the link to it if anyone fancies a trip to Dublin! http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4357645

 

[simkin911]

This car has been for sale for some time. There was a quite nice red Turbo in Dublin (private sale) not that long ago. Eventually sold. Have you tried asking on PC Ireland yet?

 

[George Elliott]

you say the HPI came back clear, surely that should not be the case given that you know the history of the theft etc?

Of course it came back clear, it was HPI'd on the new VIN and its accident free / insurance claim free since that date in 1998.

If it was HPI'd on the original VIN it would not come back clear, ......but only the thief knows the original VIN / ID.......

unusual but you could buy a lot worse - subject to Paul's point - is it legal which a DVLA Q plate is, and the price which must reflect the history.

George
944t

 

[944 man]

I wonder whether the thieves removed the body number? Ive seen a couple of cars like this that still had the body number when you looked.

The thieves werent particularly clued-up and neither were their stolen vehicle squad...

 

[George Elliott]

Good question Simon, do you mean the door shut barcode? is there a second number stamp on a 944t? - you thinking above the diff?
The 911 production line had numbers in various places - dash knee pad etc.
George
944t

 

[Mike_Pollock]

If its fully legal - I reckon the price is far too high for the risk involved.